Who is a Christian?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
The verse does not say that he became a created being when he took a human form, what it actually says is that he was the Firstborn of ALL creation. Again you are simply making things up which are not explicitly stated in scripture. Why are you doing that?

No the verse you are talking about does not.

But let's back up, do you agree that Hebrews 1:5 tells us Jesus was not an angel?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No that is not our position and its clear that you do not understand what it is and even if it is, so what? Colossians 1:15, lets hear you tell the forum what is says. I want to hear you say it.

You have previously admitted to me that you have 2 saviours.
And of course you do, the two distinct and completely separate entities Jesus, whom you also claim to be the angel Micheal, and Jehovah himself. Two saviours robbie.

Originally posted by Eladar
No the verse you are talking about does not.

But let's back up, do you agree that Hebrews 1:5 tells us Jesus was not an angel?

Now you are simply talking nonsense, the verse does not say that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation????

He is the image of the invisible God,the firstborn of all creation. Col 1:15

If you will not or cannot accept the simple truth of the verse then you must be incapable of rational thought or religiously prejudiced. I take it from your rather predictable attempts to impose an exegesis on scripture where none exists in the verse except as a figment of your imagination, or rather a figment of the imagination of those persons who originated the non biblical ideas of preeminence and firstborn as in a human sense needed such extra Biblical ideas to explain their extra biblical doctrines. How else are we to account for their simply making things up ?

yes lets back up to these.

Keep this mental attitude in you that was also in Christ Jesus, who, although he was existing in God’s form, gave no consideration to a seizure, namely, that he should be equal to God. - Philippians 2:5.6

You heard that I said to you, ‘I am going away and I am coming back to you.’ If you loved me, you would rejoice that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I am - John 14:28

Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. But go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father and to my God and your God.’” John 20:17

But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God. - 1 Corinthians 11:3

But when all things will have been subjected to him, then the Son himself will also subject himself to the One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.- 1 Corinthians 15:2

Originally posted by divegeester
You have previously admitted to me that you have 2 saviours.
And of course you do, the two distinct and completely separate entities Jesus, whom you also claim to be the angel Micheal, and Jehovah himself. Two saviours robbie.

whatever.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie

No one has claimed that giving tacit support to an ideology while never putting it into practice is what defines a Christian and infact the very opposite is what has been claimed. Why you are having difficulty reading and assimilating ideas to such an extent that you seem to understand the very opposite of what was intended is either a testimony to your poor reading comprehension or your dishonesty for misrepresenting what has been explicitly stated, possibly both. Either way you don't seem to have very many original ideas and seem intent to foist yourself on others like a rather desperate forum vampire sucking the humanity from those with genuine contributions to make.

But it was part of your definition of "adopt" as opposed to "apply" when you offered your definition, and it was how you explained it when I asked your use of the word "adopt". Here's what you said: "The distinction is that there is a difference between adopting an ideology and applying its tenets. One can for example give tacit support to an idea without ever putting it into practice." I don't see why this has brought on a torrent of your catchphrases. You used the word "adopt" ~ and then you defined it the way you did ~ not me.

Originally posted by FMF
[b]No one has claimed that giving tacit support to an ideology while never putting it into practice is what defines a Christian and infact the very opposite is what has been claimed. Why you are having difficulty reading and assimilating ideas to such an extent that you seem to understand the very opposite of what was intended is either a testimony to your poor ...[text shortened]... your catchphrases. You used the word "adopt" ~ and then you defined it the way you did ~ not me.

whatever

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
whatever

You've been caught out being silly and repetitive again, robbie. Is your behaviour here on this Spirituality Forum part of what you see as your ministry as a Christian?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Now you are simply talking nonsense, the verse does not say that Jesus is the firstborn of all creation????

He is the image of the invisible God,the firstborn of all creation. Col 1:15

If you will not or cannot accept the simple truth of the verse then you must be incapable of rational thought or religiously prejudiced. I take it from your rat ...[text shortened]... One who subjected all things to him, that God may be all things to everyone.- 1 Corinthians 15:2

Talk about too much and you talk about nothing at all.

Created in the image of God....

Everyone, every single person, was created in the image of God. It is the nature of being a human.

I've dealt with one of your issues now you deal with one of mine. Hebrews 1:5 does it not say that no angel received what Jesus received?

Originally posted by Eladar
Talk about too much and you talk about nothing at all.

Created in the image of God....

Everyone, every single person, was created in the image of God. It is the nature of being a human.

I've dealt with one of your issues now you deal with one of mine. Hebrews 1:5 does it not say that no angel received what Jesus received?

Firstborn of all creation. Not preeminent above all creation, not firstborn as to a human, Firstborn of all creation, created directly by God, a created entity with a beginning, a progeny.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Then evidently Jesus was an angel.

1 Corinthians 15:33 describes him as 'the firstborn of all creation'. John 1:1 describes him as 'The Word', or messenger of God.

I guess what confuses me the most is, you believe Jesus created us, but then say he is not our God.

How exactly does that work?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Firstborn of all creation. Not preeminent above all creation, not firstborn as to a human, Firstborn of all creation, created directly by God, a created entity with a beginning, a progeny.

Do you mind sticking to the specific topic?

Does Hebrews 1:5 let us know that Jesus was an angel or was not an angel?

Originally posted by whodey
I guess what confuses me the most is, you believe Jesus created us, but then say he is not our God.

How exactly does that work?

does the Bible say that he was created or does it not? the answer is clearly yes, It also says that all things were created through Jesus, does it not. Why this should cause confusion I have no idea. Jesus was the first entity created by God, all other things were created through him. This makes prefect logical sense.

Originally posted by Eladar
Do you mind sticking to the specific topic?

Does Hebrews 1:5 let us know that Jesus was an angel or was not an angel?

you have already said that an angel is a created entity and a messenger of God, you have been shown incontrovertible Biblical proof that Christ was both and you denied it. If you will not accept that Christ is a created entity despite the fact that the Bible makes it plainly clear that he is i see no further point in entertaining you, you are only interested in preconceived ideas and dogma. You have also ignored my calls to discuss texts which refute your claims. despite being asked countless times to do so. Furthermore we hold that Christ is not simply any old angel making your argument that we claim he is a strawman logically fallacious one. You are assigning us values that we ourselves do not profess and attempting to build arguments on the basis of those assumed values.

I will address Hebrews 1:5 in the morning although I realize that you are uninterested in anything but your own perspective.

Originally posted by divegeester
You have previously admitted to me that you have 2 saviours.
And of course you do, the two distinct and completely separate entities Jesus, whom you also claim to be the angel Micheal, and Jehovah himself. Two saviours robbie.

Repeatedly the Scriptures refer to God as Savior. At Isaiah 43:11 God even says: “Besides me there is no savior.” Since Jesus is also referred to as Savior, are God and Jesus the same? Not at all. Titus 1:3, 4 speaks of “God our Savior,” and then of both “God the Father and Christ Jesus our Savior.” So, both persons are saviors. Jude 25 shows the relationship, saying: “God, our Savior through Jesus Christ our Lord.” (Italics added.) (See also Acts 13:23.) At Judges 3:9, the same Hebrew word (moh·shiʹa‛, rendered “savior” or “deliverer) that is used at Isaiah 43:11 is applied to Othniel, a judge in Israel, but that certainly did not make Othniel Jehovah, did it?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
you have already said that an angel is a created entity and a messenger of God, you have been shown incontrovertible Biblical proof that Christ was both and you denied it. If you will not accept that Christ is a created entity despite the fact that the Bible makes it plainly clear that he is i see no further point in entertaining you, you are only ...[text shortened]... n the morning although I realize that you are uninterested in anything but your own perspective.

Pot