In John 8:58 the words translated as "I am" are the Greek words "ego eimi". There is nothing unique about those two words and are used many places other than by Jesus in John 8:58. For example the blind man in John 9:9.
Look at the definition of "eimi":
Strong's Concordance
eimi: I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spelling: (i-mee' )
Short Definition: I am, exist
Definition: I am, exist.
So it is also "I exist" and is translated as such elsewhere in the Bible. The context in which Jesus said "ego eimi" is important.
John 8
56“Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad.” 57So the Jews said to Him, “You are not yet fifty years old, and have You seen Abraham?” 58Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I am.”
The Jews explicitly question Jesus on His claim that Abraham has seen Him. In that context it makes perfect sense for Jesus to have responded, "...before Abraham was born, [I EXIST]". Jesus is not making an overt claim to be God. Jesus is claiming to have existed before Abraham.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneSo let's think about this...
In John 8:58 the words translated as "I am" are the Greek words "ego eimi". There is nothing unique about those two words and are used many places other than by Jesus in John 8:58.
Look at the definition of "eimi":
[quote]Strong's Concordance
eimi: [b]I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: eimi
Phonetic Spell ...[text shortened]... s making the claim that He EXISTED. The idea that it is an overt claim to be God is nonsensical.[/b]
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1 KJV
Jesus is the Word! Unless you don't believe that, then what does it matter? Do you believe it?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:58 KJV
If 'I Am' is as you have stated, ' I Existed', Jesus is saying, before Abraham I existed. Who else can exist before someone if not God?
Makes sense to me, maybe I am missing something here but, seems pretty starightforward to me.
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneThe translations are all at a kind of lexical (word for word) level which is rather strange. Even the New world Translation. Probably the best is the Living Bible.
In John 8:58 the words translated as "I am" are the Greek words "ego eimi". There is nothing unique about those two words and are used many places other than by Jesus in John 8:58. For example the blind man in John 9:9.
Look at the definition of "eimi":
[quote]Strong's Concordance
eimi: [b]I exist, I am
Original Word: εἰμί
Part of Speech: Verb ...[text shortened]... Jesus is not making an overt claim to be God. Jesus is claiming to have existed before Abraham.[/b]
Jesus: “The absolute truth is that I was in existence before Abraham was ever born!”
Originally posted by robbie carrobieAs long as you admit that you believe a different Bible than the orthodox Christian world, I guess there is no discussion. How can people discuss a text when each uses a different text called the same thing?
Are you sure that the term I am is an accurate translation of the Hebrew text? If not don't you think you had better find out first?
Book of Mormon
Book of Jehova Witness
Originally posted by leunammiWho else can exist before someone if not God? really?
So let's think about this...
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1 KJV
Jesus is the Word! Unless you don't believe that, then what does it matter? Do you believe it?
Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
John 8:58 KJV
If 'I Am' is as you have stated, ...[text shortened]...
Makes sense to me, maybe I am missing something here but, seems pretty starightforward to me.
Now you are simply making stuff up.
Originally posted by EladarThere is no book of Jehovahs Witnesses and once again you are displaying your ignorance. I do not believe in a different Bible (I can show you the base texts that were used for the New world translation of the Holy scriptures none of which we authored. Can you do the same for the translations that you use? Can you?) and infact I provided a reference to an article which explains some of the difficulties in translation of the text at Exodus 3:14 dating to the Septuagint and looking at various early renderings of the verse none of which were done by Jehovahs Witnesses. Did you read it? No!!! because if you had you would not now be talking nonsense.
As long as you admit that you believe a different Bible than the orthodox Christian world, I guess there is no discussion. How can people discuss a text when each uses a different text called the same thing?
Book of Mormon
Book of Jehova Witness
Originally posted by robbie carrobieReally, I noticed you did not answer the question.
Who else can exist before someone if not God? really?
Now you are simply making stuff up.
In this case, Jesus said before Abraham, 'I exist' [ToO's input], who else could do or say that. Do you think Jesus was wrong or lying?
Originally posted by leunammianyone who had a prehuman existence could say it.
Really, I noticed you did not answer the question.
In this case, Jesus said before Abraham, 'I exist' [ToO's input], who else could do or say that. Do you think Jesus was wrong or lying?
A very interesting article from the Cambridge Bible for Schools and Colleges
Exodus 3:14
And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you.
14. I will be that I will be (3rd marg.)] The words are evidently intended as an interpretation of the name Yahweh, the name,—which in form is the third pers. imperf. of a verb (just like Isaac, Jacob, Jephthah), meaning He is wont to be or He will be,—being interpreted, as Jehovah is Himself the speaker, in the first person. The rendering given appears to the present writer, as it appeared to W. R. Smith, and A. B. Davidson, to give the true meaning of the Heb. ’Ehyeh ’ăsher ’ehyeh: Jehovah promises that He will be, to Moses and His people, what He will be,—something which is undefined, but which, as His full nature is more and more completely unfolded by the lessons of history and the teaching of the prophets, will prove to be more than words can express. The explanation is thus of a character to reassure Moses. See further the separate note, p. 40.
Additional Note on Exodus 3:14
The following are the reasons which lead the present writer to agree with W. R. Smith1[109] and A. B. Davidson2[110] in adopting the rend. I will be that I will be for ’Ehyeh ’ăsher ’ehyeh. In the first place the verb hâyâh expresses not to be essentially, but to be phaenomenally; it corresponds to γίγνομαι not εἶναι; it denotes, in Delitzsch’s words, not the idea of inactive, abstract existence, but the active manifestation of existence. Secondly the imperfect tense used expresses not a fixed, present state (‘I am), but action, either reiterated (habitual) or future, i.e. either I am wont to be or I will be. Whichever rend. be adopted, it is implied (1) that Jehovah’s nature can be defined only in terms of itself (‘I am wont to be that I am wont to be,’ or ‘I will be that I will be), and (2) that, while He is, as opposed to non-existent heathen deities, He exists, not simply in an abstract sense (‘I am that I Amos 3[111]’; LXX. ἐγώ εἰμι ὁ ὤν, but actively: He either is wont to be what He is wont to be, i.e. is ever in history manifesting Himself anew to mankind, and especially to Israel4[112]; or He will be what He will be, i.e. He will,—not, of course, once only, but habitually,—approve Himself to His people as ‘what He will be’; as what is not further defined, or defined only in terms of Himself, but, it is understood, as what He has promised, and they look for, as their helper, strengthener, deliverer, &c.5[113] The two renderings do not yield a substantially different sense: for what is wont to be does not appreciably differ from what at any moment will be. I will be is however the preferable rendering. As both W. R. Smith and Davidson point out, the important thing to bear in mind is that ’ehyeh expresses not the abstract, metaphysical idea of being, but the being of Yahweh as revealed and known to Israel. ‘The expression I will be is a historical formula; it refers, not to what God will be in Himself: it is no predication regarding His essential nature, but one regarding what He will approve Himself to others, regarding what He will shew Himself to be to those in convenant with Him,’ as by His providential guidance of His people, and the teaching of His prophets, His character and attributes were more and more fully unfolded to them1[114].
http://biblehub.com/commentaries/cambridge/exodus/3.htm
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieIf Jesus was not blaspheming, then why did they "pick up stones to stone him"?
Jesus did not simply say 'I am', you are talking nonsense. He said according to your translation, 'before Abram was born', I am', which doesn't make much grammatical sense, but it is what it is. A much better translation would be,
"In most solemn truth," answered Jesus, "I tell you that before Abraham came into existence, I am." - Weymouth New T ...[text shortened]... ecial significance in the case of Jesus but not Isaiah? This you have also neglected to answer.
This something you always neglect to answer.
Originally posted by divegeesterMy goodness, do you never read the scriptures?
If Jesus was not blaspheming, then why did they "pick up stones to stone him"? This something you always neglect to answer.
The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan and demon-possessed?”
“I am not possessed by a demon,” said Jesus, “but I honor my Father and you dishonor me. I am not seeking glory for myself; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge. Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”
At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed! Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death. Are you greater than our father Abraham? He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”
Jesus replied, “If I glorify myself, my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me. Though you do not know him, I know him. If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word. Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.”
“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”
“Very truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “before Abraham was born, I am!” At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds.
There could be numerous reasons according to the text. They thought he was demon possessed and said as much. They felt his rebuke and hated him for it or that they thought he was making himself out to be greater than Abraham for whom they had so much reverence. All are conceivable and readily discernible from the text. What is not stated anywhere was that he was claiming to be God or that he was blaspheming against God, you simply made that up.
http://biblehub.com/niv/john/8.htm