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Rajk999,
If you have a better interpretation then you explain to us what it means that -
" ... for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."
The sanctification of this Christian is only postponed.
The transformation is only procrastinated upon.
In the age of the millennial kingdom he will still have to be sanctified. But it will have a far different flavor and atmosphere from the age of grace.
I can back it up.
I have before.
A man lives a life of sin, he is forever forgiven according to you. Not according to Christ and the Apostles. That man will face the judgment of Chrsit and can face destruction and damnation
The destruction of his flesh that his spirit may be saved.
It says "his spirit may be saved." That's what it says. I have to believe what it says.
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The total details of this sinful brother we may not know. But we get the general idea. He is to be removed from the local church. It will not turn out good for him. Paul expects though that part of his being will be saved.
" ... for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."
I will consider an alternative interpretation.
But it seems pretty clear.
Now in verse 10,11 Paul emphasizes that such sinning should not be allowed to invade the church from brothers who will not repent.
"I wrote to you in my letter not to mingle with fornicators.
But not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous and rapacious, or idolaters,
since then you would have to go out of the world." (v.10)
He is saying that they should not expect to be able to be raptured out of the planet yet so as not to have any interaction with such sinful people.
But, in the church, they should avoid anyone calling himself a "brother" who cannot and will not repent to let Christ lead him out of such sinful lifestyles.
"But now I have written to you not to mingle with anyone who is called a brother, if he is a fornicator or a covetous man or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or a rapacious man,
with such a one not even to eat." (v.10)
Originally posted by @sonship
Rajk999,
If you have a better interpretation then you explain to us what it means that -[b] " ... for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord."
The sanctification of this Christian is only postponed.
The transformation is only procrastinated upon.
In the age of the millennial kingdom ...[text shortened]...
It says "his spirit may be saved." That's what it says. I have to believe what it says.[/b]More grasping at straws to salvage a flawed doctrine. No interpretation is required. The bottom line there is no such thing as eternal assurance of salvation for sinful and evil Christians.
It all depends on two things:
1. Whether or not the sinner repents
2. Whether or not God decides to grant him grace and forgiveness
You are in no position to decide that preemptively which is what you constantly do as if you know the fate of sinners who profess Christ.
Paul said the man MAY BE SAVED. You think you can find our what MAY means? It means that Paul himself does not know for sure. So how YOU continually take it upon yourself to declare that even the most vile and evil sins committed by Christians WILL be forgiven.
The fact is some Christian sinners will be forgiven and some will not be forgiven. Jesus is the judge. Here is another example along the same lines :
Holding faith, and a good conscience; which some having put away concerning faith have made shipwreck: Of whom is Hymenaeus and Alexander; whom I have delivered unto Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme. (1 Timothy 1:19-20 KJV)
THEY MAY LEARN NOT TO BLASPLEME.
Suppose these people did not learn, what are the consequences?
The Bible is clear .. read it .
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Originally posted by @rajk999
THEY MAY LEARN NOT TO BLASPLEME.
Suppose these people did not learn, what are the consequences?
If they were Christian brothers the result would be that they would learn not to blaspheme and be saved.
If they were false brothers the result would be that they would learn not to blaspheme and be lost for eternity.
Either way they would learn not to blaspheme.
Originally posted by @sonshipNowhere would you find this "If they were Christian ... nonsense" in the Bible.THEY MAY LEARN NOT TO BLASPLEME.
Suppose these people did not learn, what are the consequences?
If they were Christian brothers the result would be that they would learn not to blaspheme and be saved.
If they were false brothers the result would be that they would learn not to blaspheme and be lost for eternity.
Either way they would learn not to blaspheme.
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27 Mar 18
Do you know why you are so annoyed at those who profess to have the assurance of salvation?
That is because you are still hoping to point to yourself in some way and boast - "Look what I did."
You are like the elder brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. He refused to go into the celebration. Instead he pouted that the prodigal was not as good as himself.
I see all your fuming against the assurance of eternal redemption to be heart filled with Self righteousness, Self effort, Self glory, Self congradulations, Self, Self, Self.
You write about the faith like a soulish man, a natural man, even a fleshly man.
Like Cain, furious with self righteousness at the recipients of God's grace.
Originally posted by @sonshipMore nonsense. Assurance of salvation is for those who have the TWO CRITICAL ELEMENTS OF ETERNAL LIFE - Faith + Works
Do you know why you are so annoyed at those who profess to have the assurance of salvation?
That is because you are still hoping to point to yourself in some way and boast - "Look what I did."
You are like the elder brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. He refused to go into the celebration. Instead he pouted that the prodigal was not as good ...[text shortened]... fleshly man.
Like Cain, furious with self righteousness at the recipients of God's grace.[/b]
Faith and Holy Spirit DOES NOT guarantee good works.as evidenced by Annias and Saphira
If it did then it means that
GOD WAS FORCING HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ON TO THE EVIL PERSON.
God does not do that. That is your mistake.
God does not force people to live righteously.
Your doctrine is sadly flawed. Trying to find fault with me personally is just another sign that your back is against a wall and you cannot properly defend your foolishness.
Im not annoyed. I am laughing at you and your doctrine that leads to damnation.
I have been talking for 12 years and it is now time to laugh at you.
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Originally posted by @rajk999
More nonsense. Assurance of salvation is for those who have the TWO CRITICAL ELEMENTS OF ETERNAL LIFE - Faith + Works
I'm sorry that you do not have the assurance of your eternal salvation.
As for me, I gained a good firm foundation for my whole Christian life and walk by believing God's word.
"And this is the testimony, that God gave to us eternal life and this life is in His Son.
He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.
I have written these things to you that you may know that you have eternal life, to you who believe into the name of the Son of God." (1 John 5:11-13)
You're may to spend the rest of your life unsure and arguing about the foundation. It is truly sad.
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31 Mar 18
Faith and Holy Spirit DOES NOT guarantee good works.as evidenced by Annias and Saphira
Annias and Saphira were disciplined.
Nothing in the passage I just quoted, 1 John 5:11-13 suggests that God's hands are tied and cannot discipline His children.
Annias and Saphira were an extreme case of this.
God is faithful to indicate that an extreme case of this is possible.
There is nothing in the assurance of having eternal life in First John 5:11-13 which dictates that God could not discipline with physical death them to whom "much" - was given in the way of awareness of the realness of the Holy Spirit in the early church.
They are probably among those who are saved, yet so as through fire.
"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)
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If it did then it means that
GOD WAS FORCING HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ON TO THE EVIL PERSON.
God does not do that. That is your mistake.
God does not force people to live righteously.
But God has TIME and God has the wisdom to give every child of His the incentive to want to cooperate with His plan of salvation.
You think the only time He has in during the Christian's physical life in the church age. The New Testament tells us that in between the church age and the eternal age of the new heaven and new earth there is still one thousand years. During that time He still has time to perfect His sons, none of which can go without discipline (Hebrews 12:5-12).
Six times it mentions the intervening one thousand years BEFORE the final eternal age.
Revelation 20:2;3;4;5;6;7.
According to a few parables of Jesus, after His return He still may discipline some who belong to Him.
Ie. Luke 12:42-48
Readers, follow carefully:
"Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing.(v.43)
Truly I tell you that he will set him over all his possessions.(v.44)
That corresponds to a Christian receiving a reward immediately after Christ's second coming.
But it may not be automatically so with all who are saved -
"But if that slave says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming, and begins to beat the male servants and the female servants and to eat and to drink and become drunk,(v.45)
The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.(v.46)
These are the Master's servants being disciplined after His return. Going on ...
"And that slave who knew his master's will abnd did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes; (v.47)
But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. But to every one to whom much has been given, much will be required rom him; and to whom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more." (v.48)
Notice that in neither case are the amount of lashes infinite. So Christ is talking about a dispensational discipline and not eternal punishment. - many lashed verses few lashes.
This will happen to many Christians during the perfecting of still immature sons of God for one thousand years.
Your doctrine is sadly flawed.
In the teaching above the disciplined servant is temporarily treated as an unbeliever of sorts. How much awareness she or he had is taken into account by the Wise Master.
The lashes are not infinite so the punishment is not eternal.
Nothing in First John 5 assuring Christians that they have eternal life with having the Son of God, ties God's hands so that He cannot perfect His sons.
I'm writing here mainly for some who may not know about dispensational reward and punishment during the thousand years.
Im not annoyed. I am laughing at you and your doctrine that leads to damnation.
I have been talking for 12 years and it is now time to laugh at you.
Too bad for you that laughing heartily won't defeat the logic presented above. Will it?
Originally posted by @sonshipWhat part of CUT OFF did you not understand? Every single passage you quote demonstrates how you you willfully misinterpret the Bible. In that Luke passage Jesus identifies 4 groups of people.
If it did then it means that
GOD WAS FORCING HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ON TO THE EVIL PERSON.
God does not do that. That is your mistake.
God does not force people to live righteously.
But God has TIME and God has the wisdom to give every child of His the incentive to want to cooperate with His plan of salvation.
You think the only ti ...[text shortened]... te]
Too bad for you that laughing heartily won't defeat the logic presented above. Will it?
1. Those - the wise and faithful servant - who please God and will be rewarded
2. Those who did evil, live sinfully in the eyes of God.N these will be cut off and will be treated like the un-believers.
3. Those who know Gods will and did not obey God - did nothing neither good nor bad - many stripes
4. Those who did not know Gods will [lived in ignorance] but neither did he live sinfully - few stripes
Group 1 - the elect of God, the sheep of Christ.
Group 2 - are the professed followers who practice mouth worship. They know of God and Christ death and resurrection, the were given Gods Spirit, but still lived in sin. This groupd is cut off like the unbelievers.
Group 3 - those who know and did not obey - punished and saved
Group 4 - those who did not know - light punishment and saved.
This is the very same thing Paul said as well. Christians who live sinfully are cut off.
Those who do not know God and did not live in sin will be saved.
31 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipHeavens forbid somone should put self-Effort into their own salvation
Do you know why you are so annoyed at those who profess to have the assurance of salvation?
That is because you are still hoping to point to yourself in some way and boast - "Look what I did."
You are like the elder brother in the parable of the Prodigal Son. He refused to go into the celebration. Instead he pouted that the prodigal was not as good ...[text shortened]... fleshly man.
Like Cain, furious with self righteousness at the recipients of God's grace.[/b]
You make no sense, nothing is assured
31 Mar 18
Originally posted by @karoly-aczelExactly.. its like a sin to try to be a good person. Something is sadly wrong with that doctrine
Heavens forbid somone should put self-Effort into their own salvation
You make no sense, nothing is assured
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Originally posted by @karoly-aczelit is telling that Rajk999 attracts so much apparent agreement from those most vehemently opposed to the Gospel here.
Heavens forbid somone should put self-Effort into their own salvation
You make no sense, nothing is assured
Just like the Apostle John said, the worlds hears the heretics because they are of the world.
"They are of the world; therefore they speak out of the world, and the world hears them." (1 John 4:5)
One characteristic of Rajk999's handling of the Bible - it will always attract some atheists who intend to remain so, with their erroroneous sense "Now this what this guys says makes sense."
It is like your natural concept unaided by revelation.
"Blind leaders of the blind".
Both will fall into a ditch, says the Lord.
Like him you too are reasoning without God.; Without the possibility of God's grace working in man and over man.
The Christian does in fact CO-OPERATE with the OPERATING Spirit of Christ. It is God Who operates in us both the willing and the working for His good pleasure.
Rather than religious duty the Christian life is being attracted by the great magnet of Beauty - Jesus Christ - captured by His beauty and empowered by His grace.
It is a mingling of God and us - It is not longer I that live but it is Christ Who lives in me.
31 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonship
it is telling that Rajk999 attracts so much apparent agreement from those most vehemently opposed to the Gospel here.
Just like the Apostle John said, the worlds hears the heretics because they are of the world.
[b] "They are of the world; therefore they speak out of the world, and the world hears them." (1 John 4:5)
One cha ...[text shortened]...
It is a mingling of God and us - It is not longer I that live but it is Christ Who lives in me.[/b]More mouth worship
Positive affirmation is good to a point but it will remain a hit and miss exercise until you put those ideas of yours into practice