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Originally posted by @divegeester
You didn’t address the crux of the matter, that the flesh of Jesus had a beginning and therefore must have and end and is therefore not eternal.
Christ's "goings forth" are from the days of eternity.
"But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, So little to be among the thousands of Judah,
From you there will come forth to Me He who is to be Ruler of Israel; And His goings forth are from ancient times, From the days of eternity. " (Micah 5:2)
The Word Who became flesh was with God, and was God.
His goings forth are from ETERNITY.
His incarnation was not the beginning of His goings forth.
It was the continuation of His eternal goings forth.
The child born is called "Mighty God".
The Mighty God is uncreated - eternal.
The son given is called "Eternal Father" .
The "Eternal Father" is uncreated - eternal
This covers the eternal preexistence of the One John the Baptist said was before him, though he comes after.
"This is He of whom I said, A man is coming after me who has become ahead of me, because He was before me." (John 1:30)
Before Abraham came into existence, Jesus Christ is the "I AM" who revealed Himself to Moses in Exodus 3:14; comp John 8:58.
I..e this is NO eternal son.
If the Son is called "Eternal Father" He is eternal.
His goings forth are from "eternity".
Jesus Christ was incarnated with flesh and blood as a man. But Hebrews 7:3 says the Son of God has neither beginning of days nor end of years - ie. eternal.
" [Melchisedek] ... having neither beginning of days nor end of life, but likened to the Son of God, abides a priest perpetually." (Heb. 7:3)
Will Christ ever put off His human nature ?
Will Christ go back to being without the human nature that He incarnated into ?
No. As the interceding High Priest Who became like us He abides FOREVER with an unalterable priesthood.
"But He, because He abides forever, has His priesthood unalterable.
Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since He lives ALWAYS to intercede for them." (Heb. 7:24,25)
Therefore Jesus is the same, yesterday, today, and even forever -
"Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today, yes even forever." (Heb. 13:8)
His humanity is uplifted, resurrected, and glorified as those whom He saves also will be uplifted, resurrection and glorified.
In His resurrection state of glory He tells John that He is the very God/man who is "the First and the Last and lives FOREVER"
"And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as dead; and He placed His right hand on me, saying,
Do not fear; I am the First and the Last. And the living One; and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:17,18)
He is God-man forever.
Originally posted by @sonshipSo..You didn’t address the crux of the matter, that the flesh of Jesus had a beginning and therefore must have and end and is therefore not eternal.
Christ's [b]"goings forth" are from the days of eternity."But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, So little to be among the thousands of Judah,
From you there will come forth to Me ...[text shortened]... d I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:17,18)
He is God-man forever.[/b]
Jesus was INCARNATED
And Jesus is UNCHANGED ... the same, yesterday, today, and even forever
Do you really know what 'incarnated' means ?
It means that there is change.
You are not understanding the Bible.
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Originally posted by @rajk999I explained that "Yesterday, today, and forever" starts with the resurrection.
So..
Jesus was INCARNATED
And Jesus is UNCHANGED ... the same, yesterday, today, and even forever
Do you really know what 'incarnated' means ?
It means that there is change.
You are not understanding the Bible.
Yesterday is the day of His resurrection.
He is the same since then and throughout eternity.
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So Jesus said He was the temple of God, His Father's house. If they destroy that temple of God's house He (Jesus) would raise it in three days.
And He did.
Now when He raised it in three days it became enlarged with "many abodes". That is by death and resurrection He prepared a place for the redeemed to also be abodes in the Father's house.
FASTFORWARD:
In the glimpse into eternity on this earth there will be a corporate entity which I both a Living Person and a City Temple, a house of God with billions or more human beings as those living in the city temple.
" And I saw no temple in it [the Holy City New Jerusalem] for the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb are its temple." (Revelation 21:22)
This symbolism is of a city. Remember a city is people.
The sign John saw was of a city whose temple is the Triune God - God Almighty and the Lamb (by means of the Holy Spirit).
Man dwells in the Triune God. And the Triune God dwells in man. Mutually God and man indwell one another. Christ is enlarged to include all those for whom He went to the cross to prepare a place in His Father's house (John 14:1-3).
13 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipThe city is not the people.
So Jesus said He was the temple of God, His Father's house. If they destroy that temple of God's house He (Jesus) would raise it in three days.
And He did.
Now when He raised it in three days it became enlarged with [b]"many abodes". That is by death and resurrection He prepared a place for the redeemed to also be abodes in the Father's house.
...[text shortened]... se for whom He went to the cross to prepare a place in His Father's house (John 14:1-3). [/b]
People [the Saints] occupy the city.
The New Jerusalem is their new place of abode.
There is too much details and descriptions for this city to be symbolic of a city.
It is a real physical city.
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The New Jerusalem seen in Revelation 21 and 22 is the crowning sign among many in the Bible expressing the climax of God's purpose.
In that people are physical as well as spirit and soul, I would say New Jerusalem is physical - in that sense.
But if you wish to believe a gigantic oyster produced such a pearl to make pearl gates you go ahead. I take it as symbolic.
Literally you would have a 1,500 mile high city hovering near the earth's surface with pearl gates produced by oysters the size of Godzilla. I don't think so.
More on this latter.
13 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipWrong, There is no Earth at that point to hover over. The City is the abode of the Saints. The Earth will be destroed. God made the Earth and he will destroy it when it is no longer needed.
The [b]New Jerusalem seen in Revelation 21 and 22 is the crowning sign among many in the Bible expressing the climax of God's purpose.
In that people are physical as well as spirit and soul, I would say New Jerusalem is physical - in that sense.
But if you wish to believe an gigantic oyster produced such a pearl to make pear ...[text shortened]... earl gates produced by oysters the size of Godzilla. I don't think so.
More on this latter.[/b]
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Originally posted by @sonshipThe church is the wife of Christ in Paul's letter of Ephesians.
"Husbands love your wives even as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself up for her. That He might sanctify her, cleansing her by the washing of the water in the word.
That He might present the church to Himself glorious, not having spot or wrinkle of any such things, but that she would be holy and without blemish." (Eph. 5:25-27)
Why would God change from saying the EKKLESIA, the church is the wife of Christ to saying that some physical city is going to be the wife of Christ?
This makes no sense. But this is the shallow thinking of the natural mind of some Bible readers. For example, Rajk999 thinks the Wife and Bride of Christ will be changed to a physical city. So he disagrees with the notion that New Jerusalem is symbolically depicted as a "sign" (See Rev. 1:1).
"And I saw the holy city New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband." (Rev. 21:2)
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Rajk999 says that there is no earth in the age of eternity.
The Bible says that John say "a new heaven and a new EARTH" .
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away and the sea is no more." (Rev. 21:1)
1.) John saw NO earth ?
2.) John saw a NEW earth?
Which is right, Rajk999 or the Holy Bible?
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13 Mar 18
1 edit
The symbolic nature of the sign of New Jerusalem is seen in chapter 3.
I said before that a city should be thought of as people.
Now of course in the vanacular we DO think of cities as buildings and structures. That is true. But I think here we should think along the lines of the city being the people who compose the collective.
Ie. The Gospel once says that the whole CITY went out to meet Jesus. It means the PEOPLE.
"And behold the whole city came out to meet Jesus ..." (Matt. 8:34)
In Revelation 3:12 Christ promises to make the overcoming Christian a pillar in the temple of His God.
"He who overcomes, him I will make a pillar in the temple of My God, and he shall by no means go out anymore, and I will write upon him the name of My God and the name of the city of My God, the New Jerusalem,
which descends out of heaven from My God, and My new name." (Rev. 3:12)
This is a REWARD not to be turned into a physical pillar, as if a man or woman suddenly becomes a marble piece of sculpted stone. Of course not.
The person is so built into the city of God (which whole city is a temple) that they are solidly an eternal part of this corporate entity.
" ... I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God ..."
This is a matter of life.
This is a matter of divine life in a woman or man BUILDING them in solidly into the New Jerusalem, a city / temple of the living God.
Do you think Jesus meant here that like Lot's wife was turned into a pillar of salt (Gen. 19:26), the Christian will be turned into a physical pillar in a physical temple building ? I don't.
This is a matter of divine life in Christ building the saved into His city which is to be His Bride and Wife.
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13 Mar 18
2 edits
Originally posted by @rajk999
The Lord knows I tried to be patient with Rajk999.
Patient - the quality of being patient, as the bearing of provocation, annoyance, misfortune, or pain, without complaint, loss of temper, irritation, or the like. an ability or willingness to suppress restlessness or annoyance when confronted with delay: to have patience with a slow learner.
From
https://www.google.com/search?
13 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipWhy are you ignoring passages that speak of the earth being destroyed
Rajk999 says that there is no earth in the age of eternity.
The Bible says that John say [b]"a new heaven and a new EARTH" .
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away and the sea is no more." (Rev. 21:1)
1.) John saw NO earth ?
2.) John saw a NEW earth?
Which is right, Rajk999 or the Holy Bible?[/b]
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Originally posted by @rajk999I read the whole thing and carefully.
Why are you ignoring passages that speak of the earth being destroyed
In chapter 20 during the judgment of the great white throne earth and sky fled away from the face of Christ the Judge.
That is chapter 20.
In chapter 21 John sees "a new heaven and a NEW EARTH..." .
I'm sorry.
And you didn't listen carefully to the Apostle Peter about the destruction of the earth and its replacement with a new heavens and earth "in which righteousness dwells."
" Expecting and hastening the coming of the day of God, on account of which the heavens, being on fire, will be dissolved, and the elements burning with intense heat, are to be melted away?
BUT ... according to His promise we are expecting new heavens and a new earth, in which righteousness dwells." (2 Peter. 3:12,13)
I'm sorry!
The Christians are EXPECTING WHAT ?
Expecting NO heavens and NO earth?
No, expecting "according to His promise" NEW heavens and a NEW earth "in which righteousness dwells".
13 Mar 18
Originally posted by @sonshipJust replying to the first quote.You didn’t address the crux of the matter, that the flesh of Jesus had a beginning and therefore must have and end and is therefore not eternal.
Christ's [b]"goings forth" are from the days of eternity."But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, So little to be among the thousands of Judah,
From you there will come forth to Me ...[text shortened]... d I have the keys of death and of Hades." (Rev. 1:17,18)
He is God-man forever.[/b]
That’s not referring to “flesh” is it! Why are you so deliberately dim at times?
His “flesh” was born of a virgin it was not therefore eternal. The humanity element is not eternal IT WAS BORN
Exhausting.