Why didn't their prayers save the Jews?

Originally posted by galveston75
He laid down his life for all of mankind.

Exactly.

In Revelation it clearly makes reference to Israel and the 12 tribes of Israel. Even though God has extended salvation to the Gentiles in no way means he has given up on the nation of Israel.

Originally posted by FMF
You mean you think they were not praying to be delivered from the Holocaust because they were turning their faces from God, or their prayers were futile because they had a long history of turning their faces from God?

Throughout the Bible, God gives warnings. He gives warning, after warning, after warning. He even has warned at times that he will not hearken to their prayers if they continue to disobey so as to escape the pain of their chosen path.

Originally posted by whodey
Throughout the Bible, God gives warnings. He gives warning, after warning, after warning. He even has warned at times that he will not hearken to their prayers if they continue to disobey so as to escape the pain of their chosen path.

So, in your view, the Holocaust was - or may have been - a punishment for disobeying Him?

Originally posted by FMF
So, in your view, the Holocaust was - or may have been - a punishment for disobeying Him?

This is the chapter in Revelation that I was referencing, Revelation 12

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"And there appeared a great wonder in heaven, a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of 12 stars. And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having 7 heads and 10 horns, and 7 crowns upon his back. And his tail drew the 3rd part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth, and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron, and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a 1000 two hundred and threescore days. And there was a war in heaven, against the dragon and the dragon fought and his angels. And prevailed not, neither was their place found any more in heaven. And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which decieves the whole world; he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. Also, I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, now is come salvation and strength and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ; for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and of the seal for the devil is come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has but a short time. And when the dragon saw that he was cast into the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. And the serpent cast out his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. And the earth halped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. And the dragon was wroth with the woman and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ."

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Translated: the woman represents Israel, with the 12 stars representing the 12 tribes of Israel and she gave birth to the Messiah. The dragon is self identified as Satan as he drew a third of the stars, or angels, with him in the fall and they were cast to earth. Stars are commonly symbolized as angels as taught elsewhere in Reveleation. The serpent then does what he can to make war with the woman and kill off her offspring. The woman, however, escapes into the wilderness, presumbably this represents Israel being scattered into foriegn nations. For a time, she had protection but that time ran out. I believe this is modern day times. The serpent now is casting out of his mouth a great flood to sweep away the woman. In Revelation, water is often associated with great numbers of people. Today we can see a great many people and nations surrounding Israel who are trying to sweep her away.

So if I'm right, although God sent nations to scatter Israel in part as a judgement, it may also have been a way to help preserve them. This is my view. I also view the Holocaust representing the time ending the protection of the woman in the wilderness mentioned in Revelation. Now it became time to come home, so to speak. After all, had it not been for the Holocaust Israel would have never been given Israel back as a place to dwell. Now the next and final test is the great flood of people who will try to sweep the nation away altogether.

Also notice that a great many of the righteous are killed. This can also be seen as a great number refuse to take the mark of the beast and are killed in similar fashion to the Holocaust via beheading. So if I am in the mix, does this mean that God does not hear my prayer and cries? All I can say is that although they may take my life, they cannot take what really matters which is my eternal destiny. In fact, I'll even draw the line across my neck if they like.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its a pity for you that both scriptural and historical evidence refutes these claims, oh well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KE4HGlmtOcg

history can't refute what's written in the bible. and it doesn't. no matter which way you try to rationalize it, you have in the bible narrative the fact that biblgod made an eternal covenant with the descendants of isaac.

these are things anybody can look up and verify for themselves. you have no case.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
history can't refute what's written in the bible. and it doesn't. no matter which way you try to rationalize it, you have in the bible narrative the fact that biblgod made an eternal covenant with the descendants of isaac.

these are things anybody can look up and verify for themselves. you have no case.

sure ignore all the Biblical references, Hebrew and Greek, both prophetic and historic
which demonstrate that God fashioned for himself a new nation, out of all peoples
which is termed the Israel of God. I do not deny that the covenant is eternal i am
merely pointing out that the recipients are now spiritual Israelites, members of this new
nation which God has fashioned for himself out of all peoples, as prophesied by Isaiah
and Amos, as identified by Paul, Peter, Christ and others. This is both Biblically and
historically accurate, you need not accept it, but its there and anyone can see it for
themselves, all they have to do is look at the history of Christianity, the history of the
Hebrews and the Biblical text. All one has to do is make appeals to these agencies and
you are lost.

Originally posted by FMF
Well isn't the difference between "prayer" and "meditation" useful for you too?

[b]Different religious communities apply the word differently...

English speaking communities or people translating their religious practices into English? "Prayer" and "meditation" are conventional words found in English dictionaries.[/b]

Not really, both terms are exceptionally vague without context. Gregory of Nyssa would have prayed very differently from Jimmy Swaggart (probably the sort of prayer you had in mind). The inexactness of 'meditation' as a descriptor of certain yogic practices is clear when you consider that some of them involve invoking god-forms, while, in the case of hesychasm, it's hard to draw the line, functionally speaking, between meditation and prayer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hesychasm

Dictionaries are guides but not authorities. Did the dead Jews you invoke in this thread speak English or do you have translate your idea of how they might have prayed, or meditated, into English?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Dictionaries are guides but not authorities. Did the dead Jews you invoke in this thread speak English or do you have translate your idea of how they might have prayed, or meditated, into English?

I was asking about why the Jews' petitions to their God, asking to be delivered from their suffering, were apparently unanswered. I wasn't asking about if they were contemplating their predicament. That's why I used the word "prayer" and not the word "meditation". Sorry, I am not sure what your mother tongue is. If I have been presumptuous about it, and you didn't understand my OP as a result, I apologize.

Originally posted by FMF
I was asking about why their petitions to their God, asking to be delivered from their suffering, were apparently unanswered. I wasn't asking about if they were contemplating their predicament. That's why I used the word "prayer" and not the word "meditation". Sorry, I am not sure what your mother tongue is. If I have been presumptuous about it, and you didn't understand my OP as a result, I apologize.

How can you be sure that 'they' petitioned God to be delivered from their suffering? Jews have been known to meet death very stoically, as in the time of the Maccabees.

Why would Jews expect God to save them from certain death?

Petitioning God directly is not a very Orthodox thing to do. Perhaps you are focusing on such Kabbalists among the victims who might have believed prayer to have magical efficacy. If so, please be explicit.

How much personal experience of any variety of Judaism do you have - apart from the dictionary definition?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
How can you be sure that 'they' petitioned God to be delivered from their suffering? Jews have been known to meet death very stoically, as in the time of the Maccabees.

Why would Jews expect God to save them from certain death?

Petitioning God directly is not a very Orthodox thing to do. How much personal experience of Judaism do you have - apart from the dictionary definition?

Great. These were the sort of topics I was interested in seeing raised in response to my OP.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
How can you be sure that 'they' petitioned God to be delivered from their suffering? Jews have been known to meet death very stoically, as in the time of the Maccabees.

Why would Jews expect God to save them from certain death?

Petitioning God directly is not a very Orthodox thing to do. Perhaps you are focusing on such Kabbalists among the vic ...[text shortened]... sonal experience of any variety of Judaism do you have - apart from the dictionary definition?

so is this a claim that jesus was not a jew? according to the story, jesus did petition god to be spared.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
so is this a claim that jesus was not a jew? according to the story, jesus did petition god to be spared.

Accepting his lot, Jesus cried out to God but did not ask to be spared.

So it would be true to say that Jews who face death without pleading are like Jesus. Samurai of the spirit.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
How can you be sure that 'they' petitioned God to be delivered from their suffering? Jews have been known to meet death very stoically, as in the time of the Maccabees.

Why would Jews expect God to save them from certain death?

Petitioning God directly is not a very Orthodox thing to do. Perhaps you are focusing on such Kabbalists among the vic ...[text shortened]... sonal experience of any variety of Judaism do you have - apart from the dictionary definition?

One of my favorite petitions came from three men named Shadrack, Meshack, and Abendego in the book of Daniel. They were sentenced to die in a fiery furnace for not bowing down to idol worship. Their response was that surely their God would deliver them......but if not, they would still not bow to their idols.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Accepting his lot, Jesus cried out to God but did not ask to be spared.

So it would be true to say that Jews who face death without pleading are like Jesus. Samurai of the spirit.

Christ asked to be spared if possible, but if not possible, he would be tortured and die if need be, much like Shadrack, Meshack, and Abendego.

So one prayer was answered and the other not so much.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
sure ignore all the Biblical references, Hebrew and Greek, both prophetic and historic
which demonstrate that God fashioned for himself a new nation, out of all peoples
which is termed the Israel of God. I do not deny that the covenant is eternal i am
merely pointing out that the recipients are now spiritual Israelites, members of this new
na ...[text shortened]... and the Biblical text. All one has to do is make appeals to these agencies and
you are lost.

such is irrelevant. in the old testament, biblegod made an eternal covenant with the descendants of isaac. if a covenant is eternal, it can't be changed, otherwise the word of god is worthless.

the new testament, jesus declared a change of the covenant, but jesus introduced a new god called the "father." this is not the god of the old testament who does not change. the jews crucified the heretic trying to lead the jews away to worship foreign gods. they stayed with the god of their fathers.