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The notions in this thread are dependant on a number of factors: is suffering exclusively indicative of being abandoned by god? Is the suffering of many rather than the few, indicative of such abandonment? At what point does the suffering become statistically significant to be validated as abandonment? Are the Jews of the holocaust the same group as those to whom the OT covenant was made? If so then what is the new covenant for? Does the enslavement of the Hebrews in ancient Egypt invalidate the covenant made to them through Abraham and if so what was the point of the exodus, the wilderness experience and subsequent crossing of Jordan?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieclearly this is in contradiction to the old testament when the covenant was made to be eternal.
yes. Clearly this is the case,
(Matthew 21:42-43) . . .Jesus said to them: “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The
stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone.
From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvellous in our eyes’? [b]This is why I
say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation
producing its fruits. . .[/b]
Gen 17:7 "I will establish My covenant between Me and you and your descendants after you throughout their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be God to you and to your descendants after you. 8 I will give to you and to your descendants after you, the land of your sojournings, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God."
of course, jesus didn't meet any of the qualifications of the messiah depicted in the old testament, so it is no wonder the jews would reject him as a false messiah... put the point is moot. biblegod said his covenant is everlasting and you are wrong.
another interesting point; jesus was commissioned to save the "lost sheep of israel"
Mat 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
it is an interesting point because the jews are not of the house of israel. they are from the house of judea.
who are the lost house of israel? they are the ones who were carried off into diaspora by assyria and their identity is lost.
now, given that the authors of the new testament didn't understand the old testament scriptures too well (since they were romans), it is likely that they had no idea what the distinction was between the house of israel and the house of judea, and they probably meant the jews... but it is interesting how their ignorance of hebrew culture and literature turned out to be a prophecy fulfilled!
Originally posted by FMF
Why didn't the prayers of Jews save them from the Holocaust?
According to theology, what could God's purpose have been in allowing his purportedly 'Chosen people' to suffer the partially successful attempt to exterminate them in the mid-C20th?
Why didn't the prayers of Jews save them from the Holocaust?
According to theology, what could God's purpose have been in allowing his purportedly 'Chosen people' to suffer the partially successful attempt to exterminate them in the mid-C20th?
One thing that came out of that was the reformation of the nation Israel which had not been in existence for a couple of thousand years almost.
Do you think that could have possibly been how God answered the prayers ?
Originally posted by robbie carrobieSo it was preordained and there was nothing the jews could have done about it?
yes. Clearly this is the case,
(Matthew 21:42-43) . . .Jesus said to them: “Did you never read in the Scriptures, ‘The
stone that the builders rejected is the one that has become the chief cornerstone.
From Jehovah this has come to be, and it is marvellous in our eyes’? [b]This is why I
say to you, The kingdom of God will be taken from you and be given to a nation
producing its fruits. . .[/b]
From a marketing point of veiw for the god of the old testament to go global he/she had break the link between itself and a relatively small middle eastern tribe. From the jewish perspective being the 'chosen people' at a time when your in the ascendency and carving out a homeland by annialating the tribes that lived in your target area it was a plus (god on your side syndrome), but when you are the subjects of a much greater emperial power it is probably a disadvantage in terms of assimilation.
Originally posted by jaywillNo.Why didn't the prayers of Jews save them from the Holocaust?
According to theology, what could God's purpose have been in allowing his purportedly 'Chosen people' to suffer the partially successful attempt to exterminate them in the mid-C20th?
One thing that came out of that was the reformation of the nation [b]Israel which ha ...[text shortened]... ost.
Do you think that could have possibly been how God answered the prayers ?[/b]
Originally posted by jaywillDo I think that? No.
One thing that came out of that was the reformation of the nation Israel which had not been in existence for a couple of thousand years almost.
Do you think [b]that could have possibly been how God answered the prayers ?[/b]
Originally posted by FMFOkay.
Do I think that? No.
As for me, I am positive that the reformation of Israel was an answer to petitions to God. Who the petitioners and when petition was made , I may not know.
What do you think about your OP ? Or are you just posing a question or two ?
Originally posted by FMF
Well, billions of theists don't 'believe in' Jesus. If - according - to the competing theologies of Judaism and Christianity - Jesus's status and 'meaning' was not clear to the Chosen People, why would God - in your view - not make the revelation clearer and make it less open to religionist cherry picking and speculation?
according - to the competing theologies of Judaism and Christianity - Jesus's status and 'meaning' was not clear to the Chosen People, why would God - in your view - not make the revelation clearer and make it less open to religionist cherry picking and speculation?
Do you go through the Bible and "cherry pick" things to be cynical about ?
Do you "cherry pick" things to be offended about as they relate to the Christian faith ?
What is usually the net effect of your own speculations on these things, contempt for people of biblical faith ?
Originally posted by jaywillYou think I have contempt for you jaywill?
Do you go through the Bible and "cherry pick" things to be cynical about ?
Do you "cherry pick" things to be offended about as they relate to the Christian faith ?
What is usually the net effect of your own speculations on these things, contempt for people of biblical faith ?
This forum is interesting - in part - because of all the competing, contradictory, overlapping and mutually exclusive cherry picking Christians like you and robbie and RJHinds and Rajk999 and jospephw and so on and so on, do, day after day - and for the raw contempt you all often seem to take glee in exhibiting towards each other, complete with condemnations, denunciations, accusations of Satanism and 'not being Christians' and all the rest. And you think my contributions exhibit contempt for you?
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Originally posted by jaywillif he has answered their prayers shouldnt he also make sure that they could live in peace rather than waking up everyday in or on the verge of war?
Okay.
As for me, I am positive that the reformation of Israel was an answer to petitions to God. Who the petitioners and when petition was made , I may not know.
What do you think about your OP ? Or are you just posing a question or two ?
Originally posted by stellspalfieWell, we can see from the record of the Bible that sometimes the answer to prayer was unfolding and progressing. Your point is valid. But I also think we do not see the end of the matter yet.
if he has answered their prayers shouldnt he also make sure that they could live in peace rather than waking up everyday in or on the verge of war?
The New Testamment says that God is able to do superabundantly above all that we ask or think (Eph. 3:20). To do above and beyond all that we ask or think may require more development and time on God's part.
But the final product is overwhelming - above what we asked or even had enter into our minds.