27 May 21
@sonship saidA lack of belief in the claims you make about supernatural beings and phenomena is not "an emotional dislike" for your particular God figure. It's just a lazy, dreary strawman.
It is interesting for someone to posture that logic is the main thing they object to when actually its an emotional dislike for God "figure" that really drives you.
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27 May 21
2 edits
You described yourself as a thief and a traitor to your so-called friends. I am innocent of such things.
If you think you can boast that you never been a thief or unfaithful to your friends, so be it.
If you imagine that no one in your past life could nod "Yes" to the question of "Did FMF ever transgress you in anyway?", to be it for your self righteous daydreams.
I learned a lot here.
"Why do I have to believe in . . . " (FMF's innocence of betrayal to anyone his whole life?)
@sonship saidThanks for your story about how you started acting in a scummy and "soiled" way when your religious faith was weak. If your religion stopped you from being scummy, great. If you now no longer feel "soiled", great. If your conscience was weak without your strong religion and then it was strong again, and you stopped stealing stuff from your friends whjen your little "atheist" phase was over, who can complain? If you can't act in a moral way without your belief in the supernatural, people around you should be grateful.
@FMFYou described yourself as a thief and a traitor to your so-called friends. I am innocent of such things.
If you think you can boast that you never been a thief or unfaithful to your friends, so be it.
If you imagine that no one in your past life could nod "Yes" to the question of "Did FMF ever transgress you in anyway?", to be it for your self r ...[text shortened]... re.
"Why do I have to believe in . . . " (FMF's innocence of betrayal to anyone his whole life?)
28 May 21
@fmf saidI am not sure what your argument was.
You quoted this but then dodged it. Fair enough.
28 May 21
@fmf saidOK, would you like to answer the last two paragraphs here?:
I think finding claims about supernatural things to be credible is something that people realize about themselves and not a decision that is made.
Can I simply decide to be a Christian believer again? No. But I might realize that my faith has returned at some point.
When I lost my faith, it was not a decision I made. It was something that I gradually realized had happened.
So, ultimately, nobody has a choice in what they believe, right? There's just inherent immutable characteristics about who they are and how they think, and thus what they find credible and what they are inclined to believe is beyond their control, yeah?
Or what's the metaphysics behind not being able to believe in God even if you want to...? Am I getting it wrong?
28 May 21
@philokalia saidI don't think people can make a decision to believe in, or to not believe, in a supernatural thing. I think it is a process at the end of which they realize that they believe or they realize that the belief has been lost.
OK, would you like to answer the last two paragraphs here?:
If you don't find the existence of 'ghosts' credible, you can't simply decide to believe that they do. You might disbelieve but later realize that you do believe.
Similarly, if you do believe in 'ghosts', you can't just make a decision to not believe that they do. But you might, at some point, realize that you no longer believe in them.
28 May 21
@philokalia saidAssuming that your faith is genuine and not merely a dogmatic posture without real faith, I don't think you have the control [over the part of your inner self that believes in supernatural things] needed to be able to make a decision to not believe in Jesus Christ.
So, ultimately, nobody has a choice in what they believe, right? There's just inherent immutable characteristics about who they are and how they think, and thus what they find credible and what they are inclined to believe is beyond their control
28 May 21
Alice and Bethan are both interested in becoming Christians as some friends have told them that it can transform their lives.
So they decide to study the Bible, to talk to Christians, to attend fellowship events, to go on retreats, to read and read and read, they even try praying after of their Christian contacts suggests that they do.
Having made all these decisions to expose themselves to and learn about the Christian faith, Alice realizes that she has become a believer and now has faith that the claims Christians make about Jesus' supernatural identity are true.
Meanwhile, Bethan realizes that this process of becoming a person of faith that Alice has experienced just isn't going to happen for her.
I contend that, when it comes to religious faith, Bethan cannot make a decision to believe in the supposed supernatural nature Christ if there is no "gut feeling" that it must be true, it makes sense etc. etc.
Meanwhile, I contend that Alice, having realized that she does believe in Christ, cannot make a decision to not believe in him. I don't think faith works that way.
28 May 21
@fmf saidIt would be similar for a large variety of beliefs then, right?
Alice and Bethan are both interested in becoming Christians as some friends have told them that it can transform their lives.
So they decide to study the Bible, to talk to Christians, to attend fellowship events, to go on retreats, to read and read and read, they even try praying after of their Christian contacts suggests that they do.
Having made all these decisions to exp ...[text shortened]... believe in Christ, cannot make a decision to not believe in him. I don't think faith works that way.
So, it would be difficult to say that a racist or a sexist is really even responsible for their own belief system... They got a feeling in their gut, and they can't get rid of it, even if they would have all manner of positive benefits in their life if they abandoned transgressive views.
Or are these views different?
28 May 21
@fmf saidOK, what did I miss?
OK. I tried.
I was giving two examples of things that we could theoretically have no choice in what we believe on the topic.
I do not see how the second one was bad..? It was an extreme example of a basic truth about the world that would be seemingly impossible to reject.
28 May 21
@philokalia saidI am talking about beliefs about supernatural beings and phenomena. Specifically. That's why your thing about belief-in-people-using-boats seemed so inane.
It would be similar for a large variety of beliefs then, right?
28 May 21
@philokalia saidYawn.
OK, what did I miss?
I was giving two examples of things that we could theoretically have no choice in what we believe on the topic.
I do not see how the second one was bad..? It was an extreme example of a basic truth about the world that would be seemingly impossible to reject.
I am starting to think you are pretending not to get what I am saying.
I do not see how the second one was bad..? It was an extreme example of a basic truth about the world that would be seemingly impossible to reject.
Was "the second one" a belief about supernatural beings or phenomena?
28 May 21
@philokalia saidIf someone's racist or a sexist beliefs are all intertwined with their religious beliefs pertaining to God, immortality, "sin" and so on, then I don't see how they will be able to make a conscious decision not to have that "gut feeling".
So, it would be difficult to say that a racist or a sexist is really even responsible for their own belief system... They got a feeling in their gut, and they can't get rid of it, even if they would have all manner of positive benefits in their life if they abandoned transgressive views.
If their racist or a sexist beliefs are inseparably linked to their belief in the supernatural, I think there can only be a process leading to a realization that they either need not hold their racist or a sexist beliefs on account of their supernatural beliefs, or a realization that they no longer hold their supernatural beliefs and whatever beliefs came with the psychological, "gut feeling" package.