26 May 21
@philokalia saidI don't think you can choose to not believe in Christ.
Is it possible to change your epistemological and metaphysical beliefs?
26 May 21
@philokalia saidCould you demonstrate how the resurrection of Jesus “strikes out” (presume you mean supports or proves) that Christ is God?
This is because the resurrection is not merely some mundane religious question, but strikes about whether or not Christ is God, and one's relationship with God is an important factor in salvation.
(If you don’t feel you can answer my repeated question, please do say so)
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26 May 21
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I don't find what "thousands of Jerusalem Jews" may have believed or may have done at some point after the death of Jesus to be credible proof that anything supernatural had happened.
It may not be proof. It is a historic factor which is evidence of something.
That something changed suddenly thousands of Jews who otherwise for millennia had a custom of observing Saturday as most sacred. Something caused a large number to regard the third day after Christ's execution to be the single most important Jewish day.
Now I know that whatever historical evidence is presented to someone they can always conceivably offer a non-supernatural reason for. Though that may be plausible alternative it may not be the reason.
Do you have a plausible alternative explanation why the seventh day of the week was suddenly superseded by the first day of the new week? The change occurred not in decades but in weeks.
26 May 21
@sonship saidYou are free to settle for whatever explanation you think is plausible including supernatural explanations. As for me, as I said, I don't find what "thousands of Jerusalem Jews" may have believed or may have done at some point after the death of Jesus to be credible proof that anything supernatural had happened.
Do you have a plausible alternative explanation why the seventh day of the week was suddenly superseded by the first day of the new week? The change occurred not in decades but in weeks.
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26 May 21
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@FMF
Why are you telling me that?
Okay, there is absolutely any naturalistic explanation you want you can believe anything about the Son of God. No one is ever going to force you to believe the Good News.
The cage door is wide open.
You're not a prisoner.
The exit door is always right there at your convenience.
No lightnening is going to strike this afternoon.
"Whosoever would believe in Him" is awesome !
Freedom of will is awesome.
27 May 21
@fmf saidThis is not about exposure, for even if we are controlling our exposure, we are essentially also making some sort of choice about what we are choosing to believe (and, in this way, we are also being a bit silly and potentially not trusting ourselves if we are fearful of seeing information that we think will dislodge our beliefs).
I believe we can mostly control our exposure to information about claims made regarding supernatural things and that this can initiate a process.
Having said that, these questions suggest you didn't read or didn't understand my post which started with "Of course it's possible for beliefs in the supernatural to change."
I do not think that post needs to be repeated or reiterated. The answer to your question is there. Refer to it.
I am contending that we are always advancing some kind of position of our own free will; we are largely choosing to believe, or not to believe, in God.
But I am open to the idea that we have no choice in it.
I have learned that exercises of free will can be very challenging indeed... and it is perhaps going to be the path to heaven that many have: performing as best as they can in circumstances where perhaps they were not even able to come to terms with God in this life.
I do not know if that will be the case, though.
It would be a lot easier to comment on these things and discuss them openly if it was not a situation where everyone is trying to one-up each other.
And that is not something that I am saying FMF or any other poster here does... It is this way wherever the conversation takes place with few exceptions.
27 May 21
@fmf saidBut you are an agnostic atheist... I thought this would mean that you are saying you just do not know, or perhaps cannot know.
I have no idea. As for me, I don't feel an anxiety over my own inevitable death that is pushing me towards a religious creed that purports to promise me a "reward" of immortality.
To some extent, isn't this opening the door to anxiety..?
At least, I imagine people who entertain the idea that they may be wrong and just do not know for sure would have some anxiety.
And, as it stands, all Christians should have some amount of anxiety about hwether or not they are meeting the mark. For all fall dramatically short of perfection.
27 May 21
@fmf said... I do not understand why you object to it..?
This analogy is fatuous. One might question your understanding of religious belief and a lack of religious belief with you proposing an analogy as tortured as this.
I am showing how some things are too crazy to ever believe, and some things are too obvious to ever deny.
27 May 21
@fmf saidBut their belief in it comes from an exercise of their free will to believe in it.
I disagree. I can choose to believe my son when he tells me why he came home last night [although doubts may linger]. I have control over that kind of thing.
But I don't think people's belief in supernatural things is something they have control over. A Christian who believes that Christ rose from the dead cannot simply choose not to believe it. They do not control their belief in that way.
They obviously are not going to just deny it on some whim...
But they coudl have just as easily chosen to reject it. What's stopping them?
And what's stopping an atheist from choosing to believe..? Their own will.
It can be perfectly reasonable to believe in it, or to not believe in it; it is a matter of what the will chooses.
27 May 21
@philokalia saidI think we can decide to believe all manner of things but I think the psychological proccess is different when it comes to supernatural things.
This is not about exposure, for even if we are controlling our exposure, we are essentially also making some sort of choice about what we are choosing to believe (and, in this way, we are also being a bit silly and potentially not trusting ourselves if we are fearful of seeing information that we think will dislodge our beliefs).
I am contending that we ar ...[text shortened]... ot even able to come to terms with God in this life. I do not know if that will be the case, though.
27 May 21
@philokalia saidSure you and I can exercise our free will in making many different kinds of choices. But we are talking about supernatural matters involving faith. I don't think you can choose to not believe in Christ. Just as I cannot choose to believe that Gabriel spoke to Muhammad. I might realize that I do believe it and from there choose to self-identify as a Muslim. Just as you might one day realize that you have lost your faith without, at any particular moment, having chosen to stop believing in Christ.
But their belief in it comes from an exercise of their free will to believe in it.
27 May 21
@philokalia saidI do not think this is how it works with supernatural beliefs.
And what's stopping an atheist from choosing to believe..? Their own will.
27 May 21
@philokalia saidHere is your analogy:
... I do not understand why you object to it..?
How could I come to reject that people travel by boat..? It would just be absurd to suggest that boats are not a thing, and people cannot travel on man-made objects moving in the water..."
The belief that people travel by boat is not a supernatural belief.