Why do I have to believe in....

@sonship said
Since we all should realize that we cannot make it to justify ourselves, the offering of forgiveness, justification, pardon upon believing in Christ's death for each of us is the wisest response. I don't opt to imagine instead that God is incompetent and morally as permissive as us sinful fallen people.

Like I said before, I fully understand that you want to portray the God figure that you worship as "wise" and not "incompetent" and that, if he wants to torture people for eternity for not believing in him, then that is him being "wise" and not "incompetent". But this is you simply hiding behind assertions - and your subjective belief in them - rather than making moral arguments.

@sonship said
Neither one of us knows what it is to be dead. The state of existence of being dead we just have no experience of. Whether one is conscious of years, I do not know. Whether one who utters now that God is a monster will continue to do so in that state or not I do not know. If one continues punishment will continue. I can only compare that unknown existence to something we do know.

You appear, here, to be saying, that if one becomes a believer due to being tortured, then the torture will stop.

You say: "If one continues [i.e. not believing], punishment will continue." Meaning? ... 'If one stops [i.e. stops not believing and starts believing], punishment [i.e. the otherwise eternal torture] will stop'?

If this is a new stance by you, be clear about it.

@sonship said
Neither one of us knows what it is to be dead. The state of existence of being dead we just have no experience of.

Nothing you claim about our immortality ~ whether it be "in heaven", so to speak, or being brutalized nonh-stop by a sadistic, demented supernatural being ~ seems credible in the slightest to me.

I think we all just die: the incontrovertable evidence shows that all humans die.

I think we all just cease to exist: all you have to contradict this are some assertions and aspirations that appeal to your imagination but not to mine.

@fmf said
You appear, here, to be saying, that if one becomes a believer due to being tortured, then the torture will stop.

If I am not mistaken, this is a school of thought about the afterlife amongst theistic Jews.

@fmf said
Why do I have to believe in the resurrection of Jesus?

Because I simply don't.

It seems to me to be parochial - rather than divinely inspired - to insist that I do.

This is something one would say if they did not understand the nature of Christianity, even of theism itself.

This is because the resurrection is not merely some mundane religious question, but strikes about whether or not Christ is God, and one's relationship with God is an important factor in salvation.

To consciously reject this is to deny God's role in the world, and to thereby reject the religion entirely.

@philokalia said
This is something one would say if they did not understand the nature of Christianity, even of theism itself.

This is because the resurrection is not merely some mundane religious question, but strikes about whether or not Christ is God, and one's relationship with God is an important factor in salvation.

To consciously reject this is to deny God's role in the world, and to thereby reject the religion entirely.

Could you demonstrate how the resurrection of Jesus “strikes out” (presume you mean supports or proves) that Christ is God?

@philokalia said
This is because the resurrection is not merely some mundane religious question, but strikes about whether or not Christ is God, and one's relationship with God is an important factor in salvation.

So you believe that humans cannot worship their creator, if they believe there is one, unless they are members of your religion?

@philokalia said
This is something one would say if they did not understand the nature of Christianity, even of theism itself.

No, you're mistaken. I have no difficulty understanding the nature of Christianity and theism generally. Posting as an agnostic atheist, I find it interesting that Christians like you and sonship seem not to have anything of spiritual value to say to people who aren't members of your religion and who have internalized your dogma. Your religion seems to have reduced you to asserting things that amount to little more than preaching to the choir.

@FMF

I think we all just die: the incontrovertable evidence shows that all humans die.

Just take this matter of resurrection.

IF someone were to proclaim that for him or her resurrection was accomplished somehow, what would you list as indispensable personality characteristics you would look for in such a person, to even consider taking them seriously?

List several personality characteristics that you would insist be present in anyone who would dare to have claimed to have been dead and alive again. I mean to even bother to LISTEN to their claim.

Thanks

@sonship said
IF someone were to proclaim that for him or her resurrection was accomplished somehow, what would you list as indispensable personality characteristics you would look for in such a person, to even consider taking them seriously?

I don't believe anyone has risen from the dead. "Personality characteristics" have nothing to do with it.

@sonship said
List several personality characteristics that you would insist be present in anyone who would dare to have claimed to have been dead and alive again. I mean to even bother to LISTEN to their claim.

There aren't any such "personality characteristics". The claim that Jesus died and came alive again was made by people trying to set up a new religion decades after Jesus is said to have been executed by the Romans. The "personality characteristics" of those people who made the claim are presumably numerous and varied. See my post on the Dystopia thread.

@FMF

I don't believe anyone has risen from the dead. "Personality characteristics" have nothing to do with it.

Thanks.
I consider this a dodge, a way to avoid contemplating the question.

Christ was not mentioned per se in my question.

IF someone were to proclaim that for him or her resurrection was accomplished somehow, what would you list as indispensable personality characteristics you would look for in such a person, to even consider taking them seriously?

@sonship said
@FMF

I don't believe anyone has risen from the dead. "Personality characteristics" have nothing to do with it.

Thanks.
I consider this a dodge, a way to avoid contemplating the question. Christ was not mentioned per se in my question.

Nope. I contemplated your question and my answer is that I don't believe anyone has risen from the dead and so "personality characteristics" have nothing to do with it. Note that I didn't mention Christ in my answer. There was no dodge.

@FMF

There aren't any such "personality characteristics". The claim that Jesus died and came alive again was made by people trying to set up a new religion decades after Jesus is said to have been executed by the Romans. The "personality characteristics" of those people who made the claim are presumably numerous and varied. See my post on the Dystopia thread.

My question was opened ended and applied to ANYone claiming to have come to life after being dead.

I think you prefer to avoid considering the question.
Thanks anyway.

@sonship said
IF someone were to proclaim that for him or her resurrection was accomplished somehow, what would you list as indispensable personality characteristics you would look for in such a person, to even consider taking them seriously?

"Personality characteristics" have nothing to do with the fact I don't believe the same story about someone resurrecting from tge dead as you do.