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The ideology of eternal torture is the evil darkness at the very heart of your creed. There is nothing wrong if one "hones in" on the evil at the very core of what you propagate, especially if you describe it as "perfect morality".
I empathize with not wanting to suffer for rejecting salvation.
I think the natural thought of the one who wants nothing to do with Christ is something like this:
Why do I have to lose?
Why can't I just break even at least?
Why can't I opt out of the whole matter?
Why can I just not be involved and remain neutral?
Why must I LOSE ?
Apparently FMF, God Himself, not mean me or mean someone else, governs ultimate this authority in final judgment. God has it that if you cannot be reconciled to the ultimate Governor of this universe you can only lose.
I have spent hours considering complaints against this. I cannot pretend it is my idea. I cannot pretend I am misunderstanding what it being said. I can only look at the fuller more complete picture of things.
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24 May 21
I expect to be surpised at the infinite knowledge of God who knows all the facts.
I have given up assuming that the Judge of all the world has to be incompetent.
I don't trust that thought - that God cannot really know what should be everyone's eternal destiny because we cannot conceive of such a judgment being carried out justly, perfectly.
If Jesus took it seriously HOW in the world am I going to assume He was ill-informed or naive? He drank the awful cup which He asked three times that it be removed from Him - yet not His will but the Father's will be done. He took His having to die for us and under the wrath of being forsaken by God too seriously for me not to take it seriously.
He knew something. We should trust that what He knew must be the truth.
It says "Him who did not know sin He made sin on our behalf that we might become the righteousness of God in Him." (2 Cor. 5:21)
When He died for us, He died in the form of a brass serpent. That is a judged Devil. That is He who was innocent a trillion percent died for us in the form of Satan the serpent under God's judgment.
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of Man be lifted up, that everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)
@sonship saidThe TL;DR version of all this would appear to be that [1] you believe what you believe, [2] this ought to be enough to turn non-believers into believers who adopt your ideology and so also think eternal torture is "perfect morality", and [3] you are trying to move away from the issue of you taking personal responsibility for the moral coherence and substance of what you personally believe ~ and what youy personally choose to promote ~ by typing lots of words.
@FMF
The ideology of eternal torture is the evil darkness at the very heart of your creed. There is nothing wrong if one "hones in" on the evil at the very core of what you propagate, especially if you describe it as "perfect morality".
I empathize with not wanting to suffer for rejecting salvation.
I think the natural thought of the on ...[text shortened]... of Man be lifted up, that everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life." (John 3:14,15)[/b]
@sonship saidI get that you want to portray you God figure as not "incompetent" and "perfect". But this is you hiding behind assertions rather than making moral arguments.
I have given up assuming that the Judge of all the world has to be incompetent. I don't trust that thought - that God cannot really know what should be everyone's eternal destiny because we cannot conceive of such a judgment being carried out justly, perfectly.
What is the answer to this: "What would be the moral justification for STILL torturing a non-believer for their non-belief during their 70-year life on earth, in, say, one trillion years after they die?"
The answer cannot surely be that you [1] do not know or [2] it's OK, God did it, he's not "incompetent", say no more.
@fmf saidsonship, if your answer is that it is justified because a supernatural figure that you just so happen to believe in and worship told you it's justified, then just say so, and stop pretending that your moral argumentation is sophisticated or nuanced or anything other than the almost laughably mudane "it is what it is".
What would be the moral justification for STILL torturing a non-believer for their non-belief during their 70-year life on earth, in, say, one trillion years after they die?
24 May 21
@sonship saidWhat you could consider “giving up” is the completely reprehensible, totally indefensible and utterly morally depraved notion that your version of Jesus will be in a place overseeing the burning alive of billions and billions of people who he is supernaturally keeping alive so that their suffering will be eternal.
I expect to be surpised at the infinite knowledge of God who knows all the facts.
I have given up assuming that the Judge of all the world has to be incompetent.
I don't trust that thought - that God cannot really know what should be everyone's eternal destiny because we cannot conceive of such a judgment being carried out justly, perfectly.
If you truly believe that this interpretation of the gospel and specific revelation of the person of Jesus Christ, is a useful tool for attracting unbelievers by convincing them of the moral goodness of your version of god, then I suppose we will never be able to connect in a meaningful way and I wish you all the good fortune in your attempts to save those in your neighbourhood from this gross over kill when you eventually find the fortitude to get out there and demonstrate that you in fact DO truly believe in this horrendous doctrine.
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24 May 21
3 edits
I get that you want to portray you God figure as not "incompetent" and "perfect".
Again, when I consider carefully Jesus Christ, I draw confidence in God's perfect wisdom. You said you admired the Sermon on the Mount. The sermon includes Christ saying men will be judged by God as to even motive, anger, lust, belittling.
"You have heard that it was said to the ancients, ".You shall not murder, and whoever murders shall be liable to the judgment" But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be liable to the judgment. and whoever says to his brother, Raca, shall be liable to the judgment of the Sanhedrin; and whoever says , Moreh, shall be liable to the Gehenna of fire." (Matt. 21,22)
Do you admire the Sermon on the Mount yet not recognize it contains warnings about being judged by God for such things as speaking contemptuously insulting words? Try to think on it objectively.
The expectation here is that what is tolerated by us is not tolerated by God to whom were are ultimately accountable. Perfect and all wise is the expectation of God taught here.
But this is you hiding behind assertions rather than making moral arguments.
You said you admire the Sermon on the Mount. It teaches that the minute motive of the hearts inclination is examined by God not just the outward action. Take adultery:
"You have heard that it was said, "You shall not commit adultery." But I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman in order to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart." (Matt. 5:27,28)
Men may consider it quite ok to throw aside self control indulge ogling at entertainment venues, magazines, pornography and sly seductive speech in the office. Someone other than men is a Watcher and sees abomination and will call men into judgment.
Women may consider it quite ok to entice men in their clothing and consider it sport to stir up their lust by visual ques. Your Sermon on the Mount which you admire portrays a completely right and clean Watcher who will call us into account for our behavior.
Since we all should realize that we cannot make it to justify ourselves, the offering of forgiveness, justification, pardon upon believing in Christ's death for each of us is the wisest response. I don't opt to imagine instead that God is incompetent and morally as permissive as us sinful fallen people.
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24 May 21
5 edits
What is the answer to this: "What would be the moral justification for STILL torturing a non-believer for their non-belief during their 70-year life on earth, in, say, one trillion years after they die?"
Neither one of us knows what it is to be dead. The state of existence of being dead we just have no experience of. Whether one is conscious of years, I do not know. Whether one who utters now that God is a monster will continue to do so in that state or not I do not know. If one continues punishment will continue. I can only compare that unknown existence to something we do know.
For instance, the law of gravity will pull you down if you jump off of a high cliff.
We may argue "What is the moral justification for one to continue to plunge faster and faster down to the ground to his destruction if he jumps off the cliff?"
God has His law. God has provided rescue from violation of the law of God.
We are wise to believe Him that we don't want to be on the violator's side of the law of God.
While there is remedial correction from God on one side of His throne there is a point where corrective work gives way to vengeance and retribution. One is beyond help and cannot be helped by God's patience and grace. God has come in Christ and shed life blood to keep us from that irrecoverable state of permanent opposition to God and His law.
How do I know that my sinning will not go on and on in that state of death and separation from God? How do I know that death terminates that sinful soul's rebellion. Will hatred to God be destroyed? I don't know. The love of God has made no impression and stirred no feeling of repentance in one. I don't know what that existence of permanent rejection of His love would be like. But we are warned that it is to be saved from at all costs.
" I want to disbelieve and remain happy in that existence. There is no moral justification that I should not be able to remain forever rejecting God and left alone satisfied in this." I am not quoting you. I am framing your argument as I hear it.
Nothing I read shows me following this path can have anything positive about it. If I cannot explain it now when I am fully conformed to the image of Christ as His will is for every saved person, probably then I will see it completely through the eyes of God.
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24 May 21
2 edits
The answer cannot surely be that you [1] do not know or [2] it's OK, God did it, he's not "incompetent", say no more.
I do not know everything. That is a fact.
I do know of Christ the Son of God. And the Sermon which you say you admire includes words of God working to correct, educate, renew the sinner. For example He says "Be well disposed quickly toward your opponent at law, while you are with him on the way, lest the opponent deliver you to the judge and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. Truly I say to you, You shall by no means come out from there until you pay the last quadrans" (. 5:25,26)
Here is reform. But there is a realm beyond reform where only retribution will be the sentence. I can see no coming out. Don't put any confidence in an argument against God that He should only be corrective.
Ie. " I reject You completely. And if you reject me completely you are immoral. You should continue to bless me forever in happiness even though I totally am rejecting You and Your righteousness, glory, holiness, love and authority. I join with the Devil. I can forever reject you but You are beneath my moral judgment if You reject me it turn."
In the Sermon that you say you admire Jesus also said "Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied." (Matt. 5:6) He did not teach that if we hunger and thirst for sin and unrighteousness we will be forever satisfied.
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24 May 21
1 edit
sonship, if your answer is that it is justified because a supernatural figure that you just so happen to believe in and worship told you it's justified, then just say so, and stop pretending that your moral argumentation is sophisticated or nuanced or anything other than the almost laughably mudane "it is what it is".
Somehow I don't see you laughing. Taunting perhaps but not laughing.
If you turn out to be wrong, even though I was short on argumentation Christ before whom you will stand won't be. Do you think that if you're wrong and the Son of God who died on His cross to save you will be humorous about the matter?
I think it all hinges not on how good my debating is but Who it was who said He laid down His life that you would be saved. If He truly was God become a man I don't think unbelief will culminate in a jocular scene on that day.
24 May 21
@sonship saidI think the Sermon on the Mount contains good ideas for a code for living. The Sermon on the Mount doesn't propagate the morally ridiculous torturer God ideology that you endorse and peddle.
Do you admire the Sermon on the Mount yet not recognize it contains warnings about being judged by God for such things as speaking contemptuously insulting words?
24 May 21
@sonship saidIf this question is intended to be part of you trying to argue that torture for eternity is morally coherent, then I have to say that this is the weakest "argument" of them all.
Do you think that if you're wrong and the Son of God who died on His cross to save you will be humorous about the matter?
24 May 21
@sonship saidAnd I see you dodging.
Somehow I don't see you laughing. Taunting perhaps but not laughing.
Again:
How would it STILL be morally just and "perfect" to be STILL torturing a non-believer for their non-belief [during their 70-year life on earth], in, say, ten billion years from now? What about one hundred billion years from now?
24 May 21
@sonship saidGod has come in Christ and shed life blood to keep us from that irrecoverable state of permanent opposition to God and His law.
While there is remedial correction from God on one side of His throne there is a point where corrective work gives way to vengeance and retribution. One is beyond help and cannot be helped by God's patience and grace. God has come in Christ and shed life blood to keep us from that irrecoverable state of permanent opposition to God and His law.
You may believe this but I don't believe it.
Why do you think it is morally "perfect" that I be tortured in burning flames for eternity after I die for simply not having believed during my lifetime what you believed during yours?
24 May 21
@sonship saidMorality governs human actions and interactions. "Gravity" is not human.
For instance, the law of gravity will pull you down if you jump off of a high cliff.
We may argue "What is the moral justification for one to continue to plunge faster and faster down to the ground to his destruction if he jumps off the cliff?"