Why has a bee's sting evolved to be barbed?

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
"Everyone should question what they think is true and test
it as well if it can be tested."

but not something that is written in the bible. that is forbidden, right?

"What you see can fool you, you see things and in order for you to
wrap your mind around them you define things to sort them out."

instead you accept something moses, an ignorant she ...[text shortened]... s do not "define" theories and concepts like religion does without offering justification.

"...you accept something moses, an ignorant shepherd wrote several thousand years ago. because he claims god spoon fed him all the truth mankind will ever need to learn. awesome."

Well, if God spoke to a shepard ignorant or not, you think that the
truth spoken would change through time, if God was really importing
timeless truth to Moses?
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
"...you accept something moses, an ignorant shepherd wrote several thousand years ago. because he claims god spoon fed him all the truth mankind will ever need to learn. awesome."

Well, if God spoke to a shepard ignorant or not, you think that the
truth spoken would change through time, if God was really importing
timeless truth to Moses?
Kelly

god was importing timeless truth. as in do not steal and do not kill. but how much of it was god and how much was moses trying to make a story about creation that those ignorant shepherds could understand?

i would never get fundamentalists. we(both fundamentalists and liberals like me) hold god to be all-mighty. yet he is unable but to tell the truth and only the truth to moses. he cannot lie. are you kidding me? the supreme being cannot lie? the supreme being can only do good? the supreme being is more or less without free will but he created the humans who CAN choose what to do?

if you find the above preposterous you will admit that god might have been making sh|t up. you do not tell shepherds who cannot count higher than how many sheep they have that the earth took several billion years to develop. you do not tell them they are descended from monkeys. you do not tell them a lot of things. instead you do try and teach them right from wrong so that they don't bash each others skulls(not too much at least).

if you see some dogs humping, do you tell your 3 year old child what they are doing? do you tell your 3 year old that santa isn't real and neither is the easter bunny? now take god and the humans and realize how much bigger the gap is between us and realize that god might give us some santa stories until we are old enough to realize there is no santa and to correctly deduce through reasoning where the presents are coming from.

Originally posted by amannion
I couldn't care less if the tooth fairy is a gay evangelical muslim.
The tooth fairy is a supernatural construct as are ghosts, werewolves, vampires, and ... gods.
They make for nice stories, but we usually grow out of them.

So true.

Originally posted by amannion
If there were no god the universe would not exist.
How is this statement of yours logical. It's juts a belief of yours, not a logical argument.

I can't explain the origin of the universe, but I believe there is a natural explanation for it - one that doesn't resort to the supernatural.

But why is the existence of an infinite universe - or an infinite anything - less believable than gods and fairies?

"If there were no God the universe would not exist." My quote
"How is this statement of yours logical. It's juts a belief of yours, not a logical argument."

Yes. It is just my belief. But it seems logical to me that when we have a universe were there was not a universe before, it had to have been created by a being capable of creating something infinite from out of nothing at all.

How is it logical that the material universe always existed? Or how is it logical that the universe came into existence without a cause? It isn't logical. Therefor the only logical explanation is, is that it was created.



"I can't explain the origin of the universe, but I believe there is a natural explanation for it - one that doesn't resort to the supernatural."

You can't explain, but you believe? That's not logical nor rational. Why believe something unless one has an explanation for why they believe? And if one has no explanation it seems only logical that one could not discount the possibility that beyond the observable is a realm for which a natural explanation has no foothold.

I see your position, and I agree. There appears to be no natural explanation for the existence of the "supernatural". While I may argue that the evidence for a creator is the existence of creation, I can see your point of view which says that that isn't logical. It isn't logical if one bases logic in pure science. But when I say the explanation goes beyond the realm of the material, the scientist cries out "fairies and ghosts". Which would lead one to logically conclude that anyone who believes in the unseen realm to be delusional.

I would say, that in a way, that is more true than we know, and that the majority of people who believe in the supernatural are delusional and make up the majority of the worlds population.
How can a finite mind comprehend the infinite?

It can't. Unless the infinite mind of God should seek to communicate itself to man no one can know Him.

But I digress.

No one can explain the origin of the universe by natural means. If the universe came into existence by the will of its' creator, then no mere mortal has the power to know how God did it.

Where does that leave us? Embroiled in this debate. The only thing that can bring order to this chaos is to except the idea that order can only come about by creative design.

Otherwise we're as good as dead.

On a positive note, life is more than just physical. The good news is the life giver is offering us the chance at eternal life. Is it a leap of faith? I don't think so. All one needs to do is look deep inside to where the spirit and soul meets the body. There is a void there. We can fill it with whatever we want, but it was designed to house the one who created it.

Acknowledging God (on His terms) is the most liberating experience an individual can have. In spite of what anyone thinks, it's not a delusion. How can the one saying it is a delusion know it's a delusion without knowledge of the experience?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"If there were no God the universe would not exist." My quote
"How is this statement of yours logical. It's juts a belief of yours, not a logical argument."

Yes. It is just my belief. But it seems logical to me that when we have a universe were there was not a universe before, it had to have been created by a being capable of creating some ...[text shortened]... is a delusion know it's a delusion without knowledge of the experience?[/b]

I have to ask: Does this god mean any god, or is it solely the biblical god that apply?

As I see it, if we believe on supernatural intervention in the start of the Universe, then it can be any god. Quite unlikely that it is the biblical one.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
I have to ask: Does this god mean any god, or is it solely the biblical god that apply?

As I see it, if we believe on supernatural intervention in the start of the Universe, then it can be any god. Quite unlikely that it is the biblical one.

Why should it be unlikely that it be the God of the Bible? I'm not aware of any other origin accounts that speak of a sole creator.

Explain how you think it could be that there is more than one God.

Originally posted by josephw
Why should it be unlikely that it be the God of the Bible? I'm not aware of any other origin accounts that speak of a sole creator.

Explain how you think it could be that there is more than one God.

More than one I've never said. One is enough, just which? There are plenty to chose from. The biblical god is just one in a long row of alternatives, one as good as the other.

Why the biblical god is unlikely is of course that its creation story doesn't make much sense.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
More than one I've never said. One is enough, just which? There are plenty to chose from. The biblical god is just one in a long row of alternatives, one as good as the other.

Why the biblical god is unlikely is of course that its creation story doesn't make much sense.

"I have to ask: Does this god mean any god, or is it solely the biblical god that apply?"

By implication this question suggests there are more than one God.

"More than one I've never said. One is enough, just which?"

Here again 'just which' implies more than one.

"The biblical god is just one in a long row of alternatives, one as good as the other."

The choice is up to you. Consider carefully. Only one became a man, died on a cross, and was raised from the dead.

You won't find that anywhere else but in the Bible.

Originally posted by josephw
Yes. It is just my belief. But it seems logical to me that when we have a universe were there was not a universe before, it had to have been created by a being capable of creating something infinite from out of nothing at all.

Of course you need to make the assumption that "we have a universe were there was not a universe before". Some of us think that that assumption is itself illogical.

How is it logical that the material universe always existed?
I can see nothing illogical about it. Can you? Would you care to explain?

Or how is it logical that the universe came into existence without a cause? It isn't logical.
If it is not logical then surely you are able to explain the flaw in the logic? I have participated in thread after thread after thread about the beginning of the universe, and I have seen many posters make the same claim you are making, but I am yet to see a single poster actually explain their logic. Instead they tend to resort to repeating the claim and pretending it is obvious.

I am also fairly sure that you would not apply the same 'logic' when it comes to God - yet cannot explain why it does not apply to him.

Originally posted by josephw
The choice is up to you. Consider carefully. Only one became a man, died on a cross, and was raised from the dead.

You won't find that anywhere else but in the Bible.

That is an obvious falsehood. To give a trivial example - it is in this thread as well as in the Bible.
Further, you don't explain why a story about a man being raised from the dead after being crucified is superior to any other story.

Originally posted by twhitehead
That is an obvious falsehood. To give a trivial example - it is in this thread as well as in the Bible.
Further, you don't explain why a story about a man being raised from the dead after being crucified is superior to any other story.

Not falsehood but fact, which CAME from the Bible, the facts.

Because it only happened once, only will happen once and He saved the world

Originally posted by josephw
"I have to ask: Does this god mean any god, or is it solely the biblical god that apply?"

By implication this question suggests there are more than one God.

"More than one I've never said. One is enough, just which?"

Here again 'just which' implies more than one.

"The biblical god is just one in a long row of alternatives, one a and was raised from the dead.

You won't find that anywhere else but in the Bible.

If you say, like the bible, that there are more gods than just one, who am I to argue.

Yes, the choise is up to me. The christian god is a nasty creature. He demands us to fear him.
I had a boss once who was just the same. I didn't like that job. I quit. I promised myself, that I'll never have a job again when I have to have a constant fear.
I'm glad that I'm not a christian, because I just don't like to fear him.

I meet many unhappy christians. I want to be happy. Not just on the surface with a fear underneeth, but happy in my mind, not to be afraid of some eventual coming eternal fire. I'm happier without the biblical bad guy that so many christians worship.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Of course you need to make the assumption that "we have a universe were there was not a universe before". Some of us think that that assumption is itself illogical.

[b]How is it logical that the material universe always existed?
I can see nothing illogical about it. Can you? Would you care to explain?

Or how is it logical that the universe c ly the same 'logic' when it comes to God - yet cannot explain why it does not apply to him.

"If it is not logical then surely you are able to explain the flaw in the logic?"

Sir, you are quick. I'll make an attempt, but give me some wobble room.

Let's forget about logic and resort to reason. Either the universe has always existed or it hasn't. I don't think logic can be applied to discover the truth.

So I call upon reason. Imagine that the universe has always existed. If that is true then there is no creator, and the Bible is false.

Now in order to believe that the universe has always existed we need proof. No one can produce proof. There can't be any proof, because there is no reference point. There would also be no time. Time would not exist in a universe that has always existed without a point of reference. There would only be an eternal NOW. Some say that's all there is.

Is time an illusion? Or is there a reference point for establishing the fact of the existence of time? Did somebody just make up the word time?

Make the connection. The universe has always existed, time is an illusion, nothing exists beyond the physical universe, and we are just an assortment of cells. Reality is an illusion. Assigning meaning and purpose is an exercise in futility. It would have been better if we had never been born. There's nothing to define. Conscientiousness is an illusion. We're as good as dead. Really, we don't exist at all.

Nihilism.

Then there's the alternative.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
If you say, like the bible, that there are more gods than just one, who am I to argue.

Yes, the choise is up to me. The christian god is a nasty creature. He demands us to fear him.
I had a boss once who was just the same. I didn't like that job. I quit. I promised myself, that I'll never have a job again when I have to have a constant fear.
I'm gla ng eternal fire. I'm happier without the biblical bad guy that so many christians worship.

You believe a lie, which is evidenced by your inability to follow the thought through the thread.

I never said there was more than one God. You did.

The Bible teaches that there is only one God.

You don't know what fear is. Get off the drugs.

Originally posted by daniel58
Not falsehood but fact, which CAME from the Bible, the facts.

Because it only happened once, only will happen once and He saved the world

you didn't get it. try and read what he wrote instead of labeling him an infidel and ignoring him for it.