Why has a bee's sting evolved to be barbed?

Originally posted by josephw
You believe a lie, which is evidenced by your inability to follow the thought through the thread.

I never said there was more than one God. You did.

The Bible teaches that there is only one God.

You don't know what fear is. Get off the drugs.

You have the right to think that everyone else belives in lies. But then averyone else has the right to think that you believe in lies too. How does that feel?
Christians are always insulted when I tell them that they believe in a fake god and farytales. With some right.
Therefore I don't tell them. But you tell me. What does that make you?

The people of Hitler thought they were the master race of the world. Now you're telling me that you have the ultimate Truth in your hand, buddy with god, and that everyone else should go to the eternal fire if you were to decide.

That's one of many reasons that I cannot join the christians.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
god was importing timeless truth. as in do not steal and do not kill. but how much of it was god and how much was moses trying to make a story about creation that those ignorant shepherds could understand?

i would never get fundamentalists. we(both fundamentalists and liberals like me) hold god to be all-mighty. yet he is unable but to tell the truth and ...[text shortened]... here is no santa and to correctly deduce through reasoning where the presents are coming from.

You seem to want to suggest that willing to only do good is some
how not being able to act with one's will. You must really think evil
is something worth while to hold that view, you must think truth is
nothing worth keeping or defending if you hold that view. If you
actually do believe in a god and your god is a liar and can act evil
and good your god and mine are not the same one.
Kelly

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"If there were no God the universe would not exist." My quote
"How is this statement of yours logical. It's juts a belief of yours, not a logical argument."

Yes. It is just my belief. But it seems logical to me that when we have a universe were there was not a universe before, it had to have been created by a being capable of creating some ...[text shortened]... is a delusion know it's a delusion without knowledge of the experience?[/b]

I understand your perspective and, while my exasperation may sometimes lead me to strong words, I don't believe that all (or even most) religious people are delusional.
I believe that they (and you) cling to their beliefs out of a multitude of reasons - habit, fear, comfort, and so on. And I have no real concern with the nature of the beliefs - I was raised as a christian and live in a largely christian society, celebrating largely christian holidays and the like, and teaching at a christian school. My kids go to a public school where they sit through religious education like most other kids in Australia - a religious education that is largely christian in focus.
I don't have a problem with that - religion is a part of human tradition and I'm comfortable with that.
What bothers me is when religion treads where I believe it has no place.

Now of course, I'm an atheist, and a science teacher, and the mixing of religious creation explanations has no place in scientific explanations of the nature of the world - creation is not an alternative to evolution.
So, my position comes from this basic principle.

The notion of the logic or otherwise of the existence of the universe is perhaps best left to the philosophers, but I will say that I can't imagine why any of the following - an infinite universe with no origin, a universe with a natural creation explanation, or a universe with a supernatural creation explanation - are any more or less logical than any other.
Admittedly the origin of a universe from nothing seems to make no sense, based on everyday experience - but surely Einstein and Bohr have pointed out to us the folly of relying only on everyday experience.
But why should a supernatural explanation - a designed explanation - be any more logical or make any more sense? For this explanation to work requires the explanation of the supernatural itself - that is, the origin of the creator/designer - which I believe no one has demonstrated.

You resort in your final words to classic religio-speak - souls, spirits and so on. These are meaningless, open to many interpretations, and obviously don't enamour you of an atheist who doesn't believe in souls or spirits or in the physical resurrection of anyone.

But I do love the debate ...

Originally posted by KellyJay
You seem to want to suggest that willing to only do good is some
how not being able to act with one's will. You must really think evil
is something worth while to hold that view, you must think truth is
nothing worth keeping or defending if you hold that view. If you
actually do believe in a god and your god is a liar and can act evil
and good your god and mine are not the same one.
Kelly

so by your argument, everyone who ever told their kids that santa will bring them gifts if they are nice will burn in hell?


i say you are unknowingly(hopefuly) hypocrite.if you hold the bible to be so freakin absolute then here is something from the bible. god is capable of deceiving: he "tested" abe to see if he will kill his son. god is capable of evil things: all the firstborns of egypt, all the genocide in the conquest of the promissed land. god allowing satan to torment job to see if he will waver, god killing the families of the guilty. god punishing a lot of people for the wrongdoings of few(wandering for 40 days in the desert). killing the entire world in the flood.

and the above are simply those that everyone knows. if you were a scholar of the bible i am sure you would find even more.
so don't come to me saying that god only does good. coz your book says different.

also please don't use the "god has a plan" clichee. because that argument would work in my favour also.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
so by your argument, everyone who ever told their kids that santa will bring them gifts if they are nice will burn in hell?


i say you are unknowingly(hopefuly) hypocrite.if you hold the bible to be so freakin absolute then here is something from the bible. god is capable of deceiving: he "tested" abe to see if he will kill his son. god is capable of ev ...[text shortened]... on't use the "god has a plan" clichee. because that argument would work in my favour also.

My argument all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,
because that is what scripture says and franky I don't know or have
ever met anyone who has lived a sinless life outside of Jesus Christ.
So everyone stands before God condemned for our sins according to
scripture, and those that are saved are only just so.

1 Peter 4:18 (King James Version)

18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

So yea, people who lie are in danger, as are those that have done
any manner of evil.
Kelly

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
so by your argument, everyone who ever told their kids that santa will bring them gifts if they are nice will burn in hell?


i say you are unknowingly(hopefuly) hypocrite.if you hold the bible to be so freakin absolute then here is something from the bible. god is capable of deceiving: he "tested" abe to see if he will kill his son. god is capable of ev on't use the "god has a plan" clichee. because that argument would work in my favour also.

God is the only one that gives and takes away life rightously, since
He gives it maintains it His taking it away when He see fit is just.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
God is the only one that gives and takes away life rightously, since
He gives it maintains it His taking it away when He see fit is just.
Kelly

oh so since he is the giver of life he can take it anytime he sees fit. to serve a higher purpose? and you find that logical. also the fact that adam and eve were breeding like rabbits, their children committed incest and still managed to create the human race, and this even happened again after the noah water works, all of this you find logical but not the theory of evolution.


let me see if i can sum it up for you. god can lie, but he chooses not to. except for the time when he did lie (abraham story). he is pure good but if he instructs joshua to commit genocide it is his right because he is the only one who can give and take life righteously. he sets up a lot of rules that are all dismissed by his son. can you see how illogical you are? how can an entity perform acts that would label another entity as evil if the latter were to perform them? can you think of a reason to justify genocide? i cannot.

the theory of evolution should hold the EXACT status in your view as the stoning of adulterers law. do you stone your adulterers? no? why? because, even if it is in the bible, and god tells you to beat fornicators with huge rocks, you have a brain to think for yourself. so why would you believe stories like the flood or like the adam and eve sex marathon that have absolutely no proof other than the bible?

Originally posted by KellyJay
My argument all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God,
because that is what scripture says and franky I don't know or have
ever met anyone who has lived a sinless life outside of Jesus Christ.
So everyone stands before God condemned for our sins according to
scripture, and those that are saved are only just so.

1 Peter 4:18 (King James Ver ...[text shortened]...
So yea, people who lie are in danger, as are those that have done
any manner of evil.
Kelly

is it evil then to tell your son bedtime stories? because there is no documented proof that there was a girl white as snow who lived in a cottage with 7 dwarves and had a step-mother who had a talking mirror. and also any cartoons are instantly removed because we all know it is impossible for a coyote to walk on 2 legs all the time, especially after all those anvils dropped on him, after being run over by all kinds of vehicles, being blown by explosives, falling from big heights etc.

is it evil to tell your grandma on her deathbed that your brother, her grandson, missed his flight to see her one last time, when in truth he died shortly or simply doesn't want to see her? what good is telling the truth then? who will benefit?

stop being so absolute. truth is not always good as lying is not always bad.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
oh so since he is the giver of life he can take it anytime he sees fit. to serve a higher purpose? and you find that logical. also the fact that adam and eve were breeding like rabbits, their children committed incest and still managed to create the human race, and this even happened again after the noah water works, all of this you find logical but not the ...[text shortened]... flood or like the adam and eve sex marathon that have absolutely no proof other than the bible?

Yes, since He gives it, maintains it, maintains all the that holds it
together, He can end it when He see fit, correct.

I find the creation story much more logical than I do evolution correct.

God does not lie, and the OT and NT are different so how we are to
behave and judge one another are not the same as they were.
Kelly

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
is it evil then to tell your son bedtime stories? because there is no documented proof that there was a girl white as snow who lived in a cottage with 7 dwarves and had a step-mother who had a talking mirror. and also any cartoons are instantly removed because we all know it is impossible for a coyote to walk on 2 legs all the time, especially after all tho ...[text shortened]... o will benefit?

stop being so absolute. truth is not always good as lying is not always bad.

I'm quite sure when you lie that is what you believe.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm quite sure when you lie that is what you believe.
Kelly

huh?

Originally posted by KellyJay
Yes, since He gives it, maintains it, maintains all the that holds it
together, He can end it when He see fit, correct.

I find the creation story much more logical than I do evolution correct.

God does not lie, and the OT and NT are different so how we are to
behave and judge one another are not the same as they were.
Kelly

yes, ot and nt are different. if they weren't they would be the same book. what are you trying to communicate?

what is more logical? monkeys having sex and during a long period of time they undergo mutations to look more and more human? or adam and eve living for several hundred years and god personally looking out for all the brothers, sisters and cousins having redneck kind of sex so that the offsprings don't come out retarded or genetically screwd in general?
is noah flood logical? god is all his mightyness and kindness decides to throw away humanity like a kid throwing away his ant farm. and decides to do it with a flood. and then wipes out all of the proofs of that flood but does tell moses about it. there are numerous facts that makes noah's flood and many other event in the bible impossible without an almighty being constantly present and taking care that every event is going on as planned. therefore we have a god that breaks mostly every one of the laws of physics genetics etc but then decides he is bored and abandons the world completely, except for a tribe of shepherds that he calls "the chosen" and makes them commit genocide and generally not nice stuff. is that logical?


god says: Abe. I demand a sacrifice, get your son, stab him and we will have a barbecue. This isn't lying?

Yes, since He gives it, maintains it, maintains all the that holds it
together, He can end it when He see fit, correct.
so basically, in your view, god is absolute good and just, but he can end a life whenever he wants and did so on numerous occasions. And played favourite with one tribe that he forgave constantly for praying to idols from time to time but he couldn't bring himself to sent a prophet or 2 to the philistines, persians, babylonians, egyptians, celts, chinese, all the canibals in the pacific, the incas, aztecs, etc. and set up all those laws in the OT (do or die). and punished not only the guilty but also all the guilty's family through many generations. and he suggested slavery is good.

do you still not see that the god portrayed in the old testament is a monster? do you not find it more logical that the humans there are monsters(by todays standards) and they blamed god for mostly every messed up thing they did? that they wanted to conquer other nations:God told us too. they wanted to keep the women subservient:God says so. they wanted to justify genocide and not having to deal with the resistance of conquered people: God wants no idol worshippers. explaining something they know little about and don't understand: Genesis, god told moses thats how he done it. telling people what happens if they disobey god and the people god appointed to lead them: Noah's story.

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
yes, ot and nt are different. if they weren't they would be the same book. what are you trying to communicate?

what is more logical? monkeys having sex and during a long period of time they undergo mutations to look more and more human? or adam and eve living for several hundred years and god personally looking out for all the brothers, sisters and cousi ...[text shortened]... t happens if they disobey god and the people god appointed to lead them: Noah's story.

"so basically, in your view, god is absolute good and just, but he can end a life whenever he wants and did so on numerous occasions. "

News flash, there is a time that we all die, death is part of the picutre
here with us at this time. You are upset about that, why? If you live to
be 80 or 3 it is still death and that is the way it is. So yes, God can
end it when ever He pleases, it is after all His universe He do what He
will with it.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
"so basically, in your view, god is absolute good and just, but he can end a life whenever he wants and did so on numerous occasions. "

News flash, there is a time that we all die, death is part of the picutre
here with us at this time. You are upset about that, why? If you live to
be 80 or 3 it is still death and that is the way it is. So yes, God can ...[text shortened]...
end it when ever He pleases, it is after all His universe He do what He
will with it.
Kelly

This is one of the many reasons I cannot worship such a god. At a whim of his mind he can kill people as savagesly as he wants. Cruel...

Originally posted by Zahlanzi
yes, ot and nt are different. if they weren't they would be the same book. what are you trying to communicate?

what is more logical? monkeys having sex and during a long period of time they undergo mutations to look more and more human? or adam and eve living for several hundred years and god personally looking out for all the brothers, sisters and cousi ...[text shortened]... t happens if they disobey god and the people god appointed to lead them: Noah's story.

"what is more logical? monkeys having sex and during a long period of time they undergo mutations to look more and more human?"

Logical, I don't see any pushing very simple life into much more
complex life forms. If monkeys over time changed into humans where
are all the steps in between that should be with us now? I do not mean
the fossils where anyone can connect the dots and make a claim, I
mean the living creatures that are not quite monkey and not quite
human?
Kelly