Why has a bee's sting evolved to be barbed?

Originally posted by amannion
Ah yes of course.
The old circular argument ... the bible is the evidence for god ... why is this? ... well god tells us this ... how does god tell you this? ... it's in the bible ...
Yeah, that's completely convincing. I'm sold ...

... not.

The writer's of The Bible saw God, it's not a circular argument.

Originally posted by divegeester
Ok I thought the title was self explanatory, sorry.

Bee's have barbed stings so when they sting you they can't retract it. When they try to fly off the sting is pulled out along with most of the bee's gut. It dies.

How has this defensive weapon been evolved by this creature as a competitve advantage when it dies if it uses it?

Perhaps you're looking at it the wrong way. Seems to me that evolution does not require that mutations not be random. Another way to look at it is, "How have bees managed to survive as a species despite having barbed stingers?"

Originally posted by daniel58
The writer's of The Bible saw God, it's not a circular argument.

What about the writers of other religous books? What about me? How do you know everything else is full of crap, but not the bible?

Originally posted by daniel58
The writer's of The Bible saw God, it's not a circular argument.

And your evidence for this is?
... other than that someone tells you so?

Originally posted by amannion
And your evidence for this is?
... other than that someone tells you so?

Then you can't believe anything unless you experience it yourself? That's pretty narrow minded, so that means you can't believe in evolution because someone told you that it exists.

Originally posted by karoly aczel
What about the writers of other religous books? What about me? How do you know everything else is full of crap, but not the bible?

1. I believe some of them, The Catholic writer's.

2. What about you?

3. I don't see question 1.

Originally posted by daniel58
Then you can't believe anything unless you experience it yourself? That's pretty narrow minded, so that means you can't believe in evolution because someone told you that it exists.

Good point. What I mean is I'm interested in evidence that's falsifiable, peer reviewed, reproducible and systematic.
A preacher doesn't give me that - nor does any single book.
Evolution does fit into that scientific approach so it's perfectly good.
Tooth fairies, easter bunnies and god don't. What's your evidence that I'm wrong?

Originally posted by amannion
Good point. What I mean is I'm interested in evidence that's falsifiable, peer reviewed, reproducible and systematic.
A preacher doesn't give me that - nor does any single book.
Evolution does fit into that scientific approach so it's perfectly good.
Tooth fairies, easter bunnies and god don't. What's your evidence that I'm wrong?

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/anselm.html

Originally posted by daniel58
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/anselm.html

That's not a proof, is it?

In that case I can prove to you the force of evolution. Read Darwins "On the Origin of Species" and you will see that the bible's Creationism is wrong.

Is this a proof? No, it isn't. Neither is your link.

Originally posted by FabianFnas
That's not a proof, is it?

In that case I can prove to you the force of evolution. Read Darwins "On the Origin of Species" and you will see that the bible's Creationism is wrong.

Is this a proof? No, it isn't. Neither is your link.

So you have "a proof" namely your book which "proves" the force evolution, whatever. You said; "What I mean is I'm interested in evidence that's falsifiable, peer reviewed, reproducible and systematic.
A preacher doesn't give me that - "NOR DOES ANY SINGLE BOOK (obviously you can't remember what you write from one moment to the next).
"Evolution does fit into that scientific approach so it's perfectly good.
Tooth fairies, easter bunnies and God don't. What's your evidence that I'm wrong?"

Originally posted by daniel58
So you have "a proof" namely your book which "proves" the force evolution, whatever. You said; "What I mean is I'm interested in evidence that's falsifiable, peer reviewed, reproducible and systematic.
A preacher doesn't give me that - "NOR DOES ANY SINGLE BOOK (obviously you can't remember what you write from one moment to the next).
"Evolution does f ...[text shortened]... oth fairies, easter bunnies and God don't. What's your evidence that I'm wrong?"

You're mixing up two posters - I wrote those lines, note Fabian.
As for your link - all of these have been soundly, and pretty easily I might add, rejected.
Look, if you want to continue to believe in fairy tales, that's your prerogative. But for the rest of us, there actually are consistent and meaningful answers to the adaptations that we see in nature around us.
Evolution works.
For some philosophical or emotional reason you may not like it. But that's tough really.
I would say, get over it.
Evolution works.
Fairy tales are great for kids. But we all grow up, don't we?

Originally posted by daniel58
So you have "a proof" namely your book which "proves" the force evolution, whatever. You said; "What I mean is I'm interested in evidence that's falsifiable, peer reviewed, reproducible and systematic.
A preacher doesn't give me that - "NOR DOES ANY SINGLE BOOK (obviously you can't remember what you write from one moment to the next).
"Evolution does f ...[text shortened]... oth fairies, easter bunnies and God don't. What's your evidence that I'm wrong?"

"You said; "What I mean is I'm interested in evidence that's falsifiable, peer reviewed, reproducible and systematic.
A preacher doesn't give me that" No, I didn't. Someone else did. I just agree with him, but you have to adress him.

The book itself isn't a proof just because it is written with black letters on white paper. Nor is a link to something anyone else has written any proof by itself. There are abundantly much more proof that evolution works, and one has to be blind in order to avoid seeing it. Example: Without evolution AIDS wouldn't be a problem. With creation, god must be evil to create AIDS.

Don't ask me about what others are writing, ask them.

Originally posted by amannion
You're mixing up two posters - I wrote those lines, note Fabian.
As for your link - all of these have been soundly, and pretty easily I might add, rejected.
Look, if you want to continue to believe in fairy tales, that's your prerogative. But for the rest of us, there actually are consistent and meaningful answers to the adaptations that we see in nature ...[text shortened]... et over it.
Evolution works.
Fairy tales are great for kids. But we all grow up, don't we?

God Is not a fairy tale.

People didn't even think about, imagine, talk about or discuss evolution for a long time, but not only did they talk about God, but some people also saw Him. Can you "see" evolution?

Originally posted by daniel58
God Is not a fairy tale.

People didn't even think about, imagine, talk about or discuss evolution for a long time, but not only did they talk about God, but some people also saw Him. Can you "see" evolution?

Fairy tales = supernatural stories designed to present some sort of moral.
How is god different to this?

People didn't think about evolution because they had an explanation that worked - supernatural creation. But with observation of the natural world came problems with this explanation. Evolution corrected these problems. This is science.
If problems develop regarding evolution as an explanation it too will go, replaced by some variation or new model.
That is science.

Some people saw god?
Give me some credible evidence for this and I'll become a believer right now!

Originally posted by daniel58
1. I believe some of them, The Catholic writer's.

2. What about you?

3. I don't see question 1.

1. Knock it off Dan! I'm talking about Hindu,Bhuddist,Shinto,etc. Not more christian crap.
2. What about me? Do you really wan to know? Or only if it fits in with the catholic dogma?
3.Man, get a perspective! You give me the hee-bee-gee-beees. I dont care where you come from, how old you are, or anything else. This is a spiritualitiy forum, not a catholic one. Generalissimo has been kind to you.