Why has a bee's sting evolved to be barbed?

Originally posted by galveston75
Doesn't seem like evolution thought this one out very good...
Maybe in a gazillion years it will evolve back into a fish and then a lizard and then a monkey and then back into a bee and get that dang stinger right this time...

As I understand evolution it does not think anything through it just
simply reacts the forces around life.
Kelly

Originally posted by twhitehead
If its so simple, why do you base your 'proof' on an unfounded assumption?
You simply claim "The universe didn't just materialise out of thin air." but give no evidence either way. You simply state it as fact.
Then you make the claim "It was created." which appears to be a conclusion based on the prior claim. However it is not a valid conclusion as 'cre ...[text shortened]... ition even when they have to invent stuff or create false proofs in order to do so?

"You simply claim "The universe didn't just materialise out of thin air." but give no evidence either way. You simply state it as fact."

It is a fact. The universe didn't just appear out of nowhere without a cause. What evidence do you need? Just go out on a dark night and look up at the sky. You can see the universe with your own eyes. I don't need to prove it exists. What you have a problem with is the claim that the universe exists because God created it.

Why do so many atheists feel the need to prove their position even when they know they can't prove that God doesn't exists?

Why can't you understand the simple statement that "all that exists is evidence for the existence of a creator?"

I say, " God exists" and use the whole universe as evidence.

You say, "evolution exists" and show a couple of bones as evidence.

I know. I can google up evolution and see a hundred thousand pages of science on the subject, but it's all predicated on false science. It's funny how you guys turned science from the discovery of fact into an endless pursuit of theory. Could it be because the facts just don't support the science behind evolution?

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"You simply claim "The universe didn't just materialise out of thin air." but give no evidence either way. You simply state it as fact."

It is a fact. The universe didn't just appear out of nowhere without a cause. What evidence do you need? Just go out on a dark night and look up at the sky. You can see the universe with your own eyes. I don't nee ...[text shortened]... ould it be because the facts just don't support the science behind evolution?[/b]

You say, "evolution exists" and show a couple of bones as evidence

All those evolutionary biologists, microbiologists, geneticits, geologists, anthropologists, paleoanthropologists, paleontologists, chemists, astronomers etc etc. All they have to show for 150yrs work is a couple of bones!!!

Do you not accept evolution because

1. You've read, understood and refuted every scientific peer-reviewed paper on the topic over the last 150 years

or

2. It simple contradicts your Christian faith.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]"You simply claim "The universe didn't just materialise out of thin air." but give no evidence either way. You simply state it as fact."

It is a fact. The universe didn't just appear out of nowhere without a cause. What evidence do you need? Just go out on a dark night and look up at the sky. You can see the universe with your own eyes. I don't nee ...[text shortened]... ould it be because the facts just don't support the science behind evolution?[/b]

How is the existence of the universe evidence of a god's existence? Where's the logical link between one and the other?

Originally posted by amannion
I sort of get what you're saying - despite the confused language - but you're mistaken. Evolution has a huge variety of proof. The notion of the supernatural has no proof. Oh, I know you can claim the bible and the huge mass of religious people, but none of these things actually demonstrate the existence of a supernatural entity. No one ever has demonstrate ...[text shortened]... anation is of no use i there is no proof.
I'm still waiting for proof on that score.

Yes.
Yes.

The 20 mile layer of air that protects us from space
The sun just the right distance from the Earth
The weather which waters food
Fruits
Vegetables
Meats
Juices
Water
The eye
The ear
The nose
Taste
Touch
The Rose
The view of the stars
Trees that replenish air
Food chains
Renewable energy
Mountains
Rivers
Lakes
Deserts
Reproduction
Day and night
Sleep and renewal
Seasons
Friendships
Intelligence
Romantic Love
Memory
Creativity


It is difficult, when all this, and very much more is considered, that our existence and circumstances could have become all these things by chance.

There is an order to our condition, no one can really deny that, and it is very complex, interconnected, and functional. We will sleep tonight, be renewed, the sun will rise and shine tomorrow for half the day, and we will freely live our lives.

I just have to see that this is designed, that we don't know everything, and that's ok... it's obvious that we are a part of a designed order, which we neither authored, designed or control.

To say there is no God, is to say we are in an accident... the product of an accident... when an disconnected honest look says we aren't existing as an accident at all.

I don't want to ignore the beauty and amazement of our lives.. I would rather embrace it, even if it means I'm not following my nature that says I must understand, control and have concrete proof to be secure... I would rather be held by God than by my own limitations.

Originally posted by daniel58
Yes.
Yes.

The 20 mile layer of air that protects us from space
The sun just the right distance from the Earth
The weather which waters food
Fruits
Vegetables
Meats
Juices
Water
The eye
The ear
The nose
Taste
Touch
The Rose
The view of the stars
Trees that replenish air
Food chains
Renewable energy
Mountains
Rivers
Lakes
Deserts
...[text shortened]... e concrete proof to be secure... I would rather be held by God than by my own limitations.

The fact that everything seems just right for life shouldn't be all that surprising. If the things that make life possible weren't around then life wouldn't exist.

What's the problem with this being an accident? Why must you religious types have some sort of forced order imposed on the universe and everything in it from outside?
What is such a problem about life and the world and everything else being here by pure blind accident?
It still doesn't negate the beauty and wonder of existence, which I too want to embrace.

But my non belief in gods and fairies doesn't mean beauty and wonder are closed off from me. Far from it ...

Originally posted by amannion
The fact that everything seems just right for life shouldn't be all that surprising. If the things that make life possible weren't around then life wouldn't exist.

What's the problem with this being an accident? Why must you religious types have some sort of forced order imposed on the universe and everything in it from outside?
What is such a problem a ...[text shortened]... in gods and fairies doesn't mean beauty and wonder are closed off from me. Far from it ...

"What's the problem with this being an accident? Why must you religious types have some sort of forced order imposed on the universe and everything in it from outside?""

For me it is as simple as seeing someone just dial in a complex code
and open a lock, if they open it I believe they knew the combination.

I don't believe all of those things just happen just right so that life
not only could appear, but did when so many things could have gone
wrong and life not happen.
Kelly

Originally posted by daniel58
To say there is no God, is to say we are in an accident... the product of an accident... when an disconnected honest look says we aren't existing as an accident at all.

Congratulations, you've just proved that the Hindu religion is the one and right religion!

No? Your argument perfectly make sense for any Hindu believer!

Originally posted by KellyJay
"What's the problem with this being an accident? Why must you religious types have some sort of forced order imposed on the universe and everything in it from outside?""

For me it is as simple as seeing someone just dial in a complex code
and open a lock, if they open it I believe they knew the combination.

I don't believe all of those things just ha ...[text shortened]... ould appear, but did when so many things could have gone
wrong and life not happen.
Kelly

Okay, let's suppose that somewhere in some imaginary universe, the conditions are right for life to appear - maybe not everywhere mind you - these conditions might be quite refined; it might be that in many places in this imaginary universe, life just can't exist.
Okay, so life forms in the places where it can - through whatever process it uses.
Now, the life evolves into intelligence and begins to contemplate its place in the cosmos. Would it surprise us looking in on this universe that this life was there, in the place where life could be? I would say no. Life would be expected to be found where it can develop and we would not expect to find it where it can't.
A better stated version of this is known as the anthropic principle - or maybe the weak anthropic principle.

Anyway, the point is why should it be a surprise that we are here, where conditions are good for life? Where else would you expect us, where conditions are not good?

Originally posted by amannion
Okay, let's suppose that somewhere in some imaginary universe, the conditions are right for life to appear - maybe not everywhere mind you - these conditions might be quite refined; it might be that in many places in this imaginary universe, life just can't exist.
Okay, so life forms in the places where it can - through whatever process it uses.
Now, the ...[text shortened]... conditions are good for life? Where else would you expect us, where conditions are not good?

I imagine you can imagine what you will, and come up with whatever
reasons why you think it all happened. You asked why people of faith
believed what we do, so I responded. You assume life sprang from
non-life, and you assume non-life just sprang from where, and that
all of this non-life just put itself in just the right order under just the
right conditions with all the necessary parts able to play their part,
under conditions that not only allow life to start from non-life, but
flourish too.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
I imagine you can imagine what you will, and come up with whatever
reasons why you think it all happened. You asked why people of faith
believed what we do, so I responded. You assume life sprang from
non-life, and you assume non-life just sprang from where, and that
all of this non-life just put itself in just the right order under just the
right cond ...[text shortened]... rt,
under conditions that not only allow life to start from non-life, but
flourish too.
Kelly

Why is it any simpler to believe in some fairy/god than it is to believe that life might have begun from non-living components?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I imagine you can imagine what you will, and come up with whatever
reasons why you think it all happened. You asked why people of faith
believed what we do, so I responded. You assume life sprang from
non-life, and you assume non-life just sprang from where, and that
all of this non-life just put itself in just the right order under just the
right cond ...[text shortened]... rt,
under conditions that not only allow life to start from non-life, but
flourish too.
Kelly

Kelly, you don't seem to understand cause and effect. Life evolved because of the conditions on this planet, it adapted to them. If conditions were slightly different who's to say that other systems of life wouldn't adapt to those conditions.

So far as we know there's only life on our planet, but we've only been to our own moon. Who knows what Mars will yeild when we get there, and what about the other planets and moons in our solar system. If it's ever at all possible we know so far over 340 planets outside of our solar system to explore. There are billions upon billions of stars in our galaxy and billions upon billions of galaxies in the cosmos.

You say life came from non-life, yet you only seem to think we are alive. Our planet is alive, our sun is alive, our solar system is alive, our galaxy is alive and the whole universe is alive. Every where and everything is alive, you got ot look at the bigger picture and not just think we are the centre of, and that the universe is just for us. We are but a mere blip, just a bunch of meglamaniac monkeys running around an insignificant planet in the middle of nowhere in the vastness of the cosmos.

Originally posted by amannion
Why is it any simpler to believe in some fairy/god than it is to believe that life might have begun from non-living components?

Because of the vastness of all that is required is far greater than any
human invention ever put together, or better said than all of our
human inventions ever created combine! You don't have a clue
where everything came from let alone why they are the way they are,
so you really are just looking at an end product and suggesting it is
no big deal. Putting together life is just a small part of the picture,
and even there it is more complex than our CPUs or cars.
Kelly

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Kelly, you don't seem to understand cause and effect. Life evolved because of the conditions on this planet, it adapted to them. If conditions were slightly different who's to say that other systems of life wouldn't adapt to those conditions.

So far as we know there's only life on our planet, but we've only been to our own moon. Who knows what Mars wi ...[text shortened]... ing around an insignificant planet in the middle of nowhere in the vastness of the cosmos.

You are telling me I'm wrong because of, "you state your beliefs" and
that is suppose to settle it? I grasp cause and effect I rely on cause
and effect throughout my life, we all do! What you and others here
do is just skim over the vastness of what is required and act like it is
no big deal getting all the proper material for any project in the right
place, in the right quanities, in the right conditions, and having all the
reactions timed at the correct moment, in an area where it all can
continue the process through time.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You are telling me I'm wrong because of, "you state your beliefs" and
that is suppose to settle it? I grasp cause and effect I rely on cause
and effect throughout my life, we all do! What you and others here
do is just skim over the vastness of what is required and act like it is
no big deal getting all the proper material for any project in the right
...[text shortened]... at the correct moment, in an area where it all can
continue the process through time.
Kelly

Sorry, my mistake, i forgot who i was writing to. You're the guy who couldn't understand dendochronology, how on Earth are you going to understand something like evolution. You're tiny little brain couldn't compute something relatively simple as tree rings how's it going to cope with understanding 3 billion years of life on this planet. You believe God made you in one day, looks like he rushed it.


Nobody's skimming over anything, and i'll tell you again, not that your going to understand anyhow.......you've got the wrong end of the stick about cause and effect. Yes, life on this planet is a miracle, but we are here having this conversation so it's not impossible.

"you state your beliefs" and that is suppose to settle it

Gimme a break, that's all you theists have done for the last 2 thousand years.