You Think You Are Eternally Saved? Really? Read This !

2. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. (2 Pet 2:20-21)

This is no slam dunk passage for losing salvation.

The implication is very much the same as what Jesus told His disciples in the Gospel of Luke -

"And the Lord said, Who then is the faithful and prudent steward, whom the master will set over his service to give them their portion of food at the proper time ?

Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find so doing. Truly I tell you that he will set him over all his possessions.

But if that slave says in his heart, My master is delaying his coming, and begins to beat the male servants and the female servants and to eat and to drink and become drunk,

The master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, and will cut him asunder, and will appoint his portion with the unbelievers.

And that slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare pr dp according to his will, will receive many lashes;

But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes. But to every one to whom much has been given, much will be required from him; and to whom much has been committed, they will ask of him all the more." (Luke 12:42-48)

1.) The teaching is about serving Christ and His second coming.

2.) All the servants in the teaching refer to Christians.

3.) Saying "My master is delaying his coming" is rationalizing that the second coming of Christ is far away. And so reasoning, begin to behave badly like an unbeliever.

4.) The warning of Christ is the He will come when this negligent bad acting servant of Christ does not expect Him.

5.) Since he has acted like and unbeliever, he will in some measure taste something of the same destiny of an unbeliever.

6.) The degree of his discipline will be in proportion to the light and truth that he had received.

" ... to every one to whom much has been given, much will be required from him. "

"And the slave who knew his master's will and did not prepare or do according to his will, will receive many lashes. But he who did not know, yet did things worthy of stripes, will receive few lashes."

Therefore it would be better if some had less knowledge of the way of righteousness then to have KNOWN and fallen away.

Does this teaching mean the servant is no longer saved and will perish forever like the unbeliever ?

No. The issue has to do with reward - "Blessed is that slave whom his master, when he comes, will find him so doing. truly I tell you that he will set him over all his possessions." (v.43,44)

Being set over the Lord's possessions is the reward to the overcoming Christian during the 1,000 year millennial reign following Christ's second coming (Rev. 20:2,3,4,5,6,7) .

This period PRECEEDS the age of eternity with the new heaven and the new earth (Rev. 21,22)

So the enjoyment of reigning with Christ and being over His possessions or being beaten with few stripes or many stripes (tasting something of the Lord's dealing with unbelievers) takes place in this intervening period.

But how do I know that the servant beaten with few stripes or many stripes is not "beaten" forever and ever as in eternal punishment ?

Answer: The parable is like that of the unforgiving servant who also mistreated his fellow servants in Matthew 18:23-34.

The punishment of that servant was not eternal. It was UNTIL a certain time. That means punishement was terminated. The punishment was UNTIL a certain lesson was learned through discipline -

"And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed." (Matt. 18:34)

The Lord will punish some servants UNTIL a certain time at His discretion. Then He will bring the punishment to an END. So the punished servants of Christ are not punished forever.

Originally posted by sonship
[quote] 2. For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the hol ...[text shortened]... o an [b]END. So the punished servants of Christ are not punished forever.[/b]

its was a parable, a made up fictional account to illustrate forgiveness, you are using it in an entirely inappropriate way, once again imposing your opinion on the text where none actually exists in the passage. It really amazes me that you feel no qualms about doing so.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Lets start here...
[b]1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God
NKJV

In the flesh they sin, no one can live the rest of their lives here on earth and not sin. But in the spirit, they are uncontaminated, they cannot sin.

1 Peter 1:22-24

22 Sinc n unbeliever, but if they were born again, they will still be saved even if through fire.

1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God
NKJV

another very poor translation, it gives no indication of the nature of the Greek verb. Once again there is no indication in the text that the writer makes the distinction between sinning in spirit or in the flesh, you have imposed it upon the text.

At 1 John 2:1, the apostle John says: “If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father” (KJ). The Greek verb for “sin” is in the aorist tense, hence the time of the action is punctiliar, or momentary. The aorist tense here points to one act of sinning, whereas the present infinitive would denote the condition of being a sinner or the continuous or progressive action in sinning. So John does not speak of someone carrying on a practice of sinning, but of one who does “commit a sin.” (Compare Mt 4:9, where the aorist indicates that the Devil did not ask Jesus to do constant or continuous worship to him, but “an act of worship.&rdquo😉

But, if 1 John 3:6, 9 is read without taking into account the fact that the verb there is in the present tense, John seems to contradict his words above noted. The King James Version reads: “Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not,” and, “Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin.” These renderings fail to carry over into English the continuous action denoted by the present tense of the Greek verbs used. Some modern translations, instead of saying here, “sinneth not” and “doth not commit sin,” take note of the continuous action and render the verbs accordingly: “does not practice sin,” “does not carry on sin” (NW); “practices sin,” “makes a practice of sinning” (CB); “does not habitually sin,” “does not practice sin” (Ph); “does not continue to sin” (TEV).

Once gain the bible makes a distinction between habitual and wilful sin and involuntary sin. There is no sacrifice left for those who upon coming to a knowledge of the Christ, trample upon his sacrifice by wilfully practising sin.

ts was a parable, a made up fictional account to illustrate forgiveness,

You are referring to Matthew 18:21-35.

The parables of Jesus can usually be confirmed with plain teaching in other portions of the Bible. So the parable may be a fictional illustration. But it is backed up with plain teaching elsewhere.

you are using it in an entirely inappropriate way, once again imposing your opinion on the text where none actually exists in the passage. It really amazes me that you feel no qualms about doing so.

No I am not using either parable inappropriately.

BOTH parables concern the servants of the Lord being dealt with Him right after He comes again. Both parables concern His second coming and the things related to His treatment of His servants.

This is most obvious in the parable teaching of Luke 12:35-48. The conversation is about watchfulness and faithfulness for the second coming of Jesus:

"And you be like men waiting for their own master when he returns from the wedding feast, so that when he comes and knocks they may open to him immediately." (v.36)

He want to return and find His disciples watching, reading, diligently and faithfully serving Him. He does not want them to be caught off guard. And His teaching from verse 36 through to 48 is on that subject.

"But know this, that if the master of the house had known in what hour the thief was coming, he would not have allowed his house to be broken into. You also, be ready ..." (vs.39,40a)

There is no question that the whole teaching from verse 35 until verse 48 is about being properly ready for the second coming of Jesus the Master.

Now in Matthew 18:23-35 it may be not as obvious that the second coming is an integral part of the teaching.

The relevant question is WHEN would Jesus Christ turn over any servant of His to the torturers ? It would be at His second coming to judge His own house, His Christians -

"For the Son of Man is to come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will repay each man according to his doings." (Matt. 16:28)

The context is taking up one's cross, denying one's self to follow the Lord Jesus (vs.23-26) .

Peter and all the other disciples, including the disciples down through the centuries, IF they want to follow the Lord Jesus, must deny themselves. When Jesus comes again He will repay all His believers according to their doings. The doings are mainly to follow Jesus rather than follow their own selves -

"If anyone want to come after Me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me." (v.24) If the believer does so he will save his soul-life, meaning he will enjoy his soul in the coming kingdom. If in the church age a follower will not pick up his cross, deny himself in favor of enjoying Jesus and His grace, he will save his soul-life now but lose his soul-life when Jesus COMES. He will lose some reward meant for the enjoyment of his soul.

So the major dealing of Jesus with His servants is in His second coming. This is one reason why so many Christians THINK they are getting away with many things now.

Back to chapter 18 now. Jesus reminds the forgiven servant that ALL of his debt has been forgiven - " Then his master called him to him and said to him, Evil slave, all that debt I forgave you, because you begged me. Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave even as I had mercy on you ?" (18:32,33)

Robbie, this should correspond to Christians coming before the judgment seat of Christ to be rewarded for denying themselves to follow the Lord.

"Do you recall that I FORGAVE you all of your sins. At Calvary all of your sins were taken up to the cross and judged in My body. You were redeemed forever because you came to Me.

Knowing that you had been forgiven of all your sins why did you not take up the cross and deny your temper, deny your grudge, deny your wanting to get even, deny your hurt feelings, deny your being offended , etc, etc, at your fellow Christian brother?"

This is the kind of dealing which a Christian may face AFTER the second coming of Christ. To hold a grudge is to save your soul life today. You enjoy the feeling of being wronged. To forgive the offending person is remembering that you yourself had great sins which Christ died for to set you completely free from guilt before God.

This is the dealing after the second coming of Christ. And it is at this time some will be turned over to some "torturers" - probably angels.

One thing more - "And his master became angry and delivered him to the torturers until he would repay all that was owed. So will My Father do to you if each of you does not forgive his brother from your hearts." (v.34,35)

No one can repay Jesus Christ for what He has done on the cross for our sins. NO ONE but NO ONE can PAY BACK to the Son of God what He has done for them on Calvary.

This paying back is related to what was owed in overcoming and being a victorious believer ONCE having been saved. This is what is owed not to make up for a life of sin. This is what is owed in not taking God's grace as a cheap thing. It is normal that the believer should follow His Savior and Lord thankfully and fully.

I'll stop here for length.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
1 John 3:9
Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God
NKJV

another very poor translation, it gives no indication of the nature of the Greek verb. Once again there is no indication in the text that the writer makes the distinction between sinning in spirit or in the ...[text shortened]... upon coming to a knowledge of the Christ, trample upon his sacrifice by wilfully practising sin.

Wrong...if this were true then you will have to find backdoor excuses and "mistranslations" in many passages.

John 3:16 comes to mind, it does not say "may not perish" it says "shall not perish."

How about 1 Peter 1:22-24

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one another fervently with a pure heart, 23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,
NKJV

Is this seed corruptible then?

1 Cor 3:12-15
If any man builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. 14 If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. 15 If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames.
NIV
Is the above verse mistranslated too?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Wrong...if this were true then you will have to find backdoor excuses and "mistranslations" in many passages.

John 3:16 comes to mind, it does not say "may not perish" it says "shall not perish."

How about 1 Peter 1:22-24

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one anot ...[text shortened]... ut only as one escaping through the flames.
NIV
Is the above verse mistranslated too?

Good post checkbaiter !

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Wrong...if this were true then you will have to find backdoor excuses and "mistranslations" in many passages.

John 3:16 comes to mind, it does not say "may not perish" it says "shall not perish."

How about 1 Peter 1:22-24

22 Since you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit in sincere love of the brethren, love one anot ut only as one escaping through the flames.
NIV
Is the above verse mistranslated too?

its not an excuse, I provided a reason why the translation that you provided was inaccurate, it simply does not convey the intent of the original Greek verb in making a distinction between practising wilful sin (a continuous process) and involuntary sin ( a single act in time) and seeing that you have failed to sate why it should be rendered in the way that it is and ignored all the references that i gave I am forced to conclude that you have no idea what you are talking about and think that your opinion is more valuable than the word of God and until you do address the text in 1 John and the accuracy of its translation in relation to your point you then i see no point in discussing any others.

Where in the text does the scripture at 1 John speak of a distinction between the flesh and the spirit, it doesn't, like Jaywill you think you can simply make it up as you go along and palm it off on others as some kind of self certified proof, its ludicrous, all that you have done is prove that you believe your own propaganda.

Originally posted by sonship

ts was a parable, a made up fictional account to illustrate forgiveness,

You are referring to [b]Matthew 18:21-35.

The parables of Jesus can usually be confirmed with plain teaching in other portions of the Bible. So the parable may be a fictional illustration. But it is backed up with plain teaching elsewhere.

[quote]
yo w His Savior and Lord thankfully and fully.

I'll stop here for length.[/b]

you are simply another person that values his own opinions over what is actually written in the word of God, Christ did not use that parable to talk of temporal or permanent punishment but forgiveness in relation to Gods forgiveness, you simply make it up, all you have proven is that you are willing to simply believe your own propaganda and attempt to superimpose it on the word of God, you are full of it in fact.

Originally posted by sonship
Good post checkbaiter !

not it was not, he failed to make a single valid point with regard to the content of my post and the accuracy of the translation that he used to attempt to establish his point and like all evangelicals that i have ever met, proffered his opinion as some kind of truth and simply tried to cover over the fact by producing a plethora of other verses as some type of subterfuge, entirely predictable and quite banal.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
its not an excuse, I provided a reason why the translation that you provided was inaccurate, it simply does not convey the intent of the original Greek verb in making a distinction between practising wilful sin (a continuous process) and involuntary sin ( a single act in time) and seeing that you have failed to sate why it should be rendered in the w ...[text shortened]... ied proof, its ludicrous, all that you have done is prove that you believe your own propaganda.

No person has any idea of what they are talking about, if they do not agree with the Watchtower, do they? You also see no point in discussing any scripture that disagrees with the Watchtower interpretation. How nice.

The Instructor

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
what is it about these people being Christians and because of practising iniquity being no longer acceptable to God that you dont understand?

(Matthew 7:21-23) “Not everyone saying to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the kingdom of the heavens, but the one [b]doing the will of my Father who is in the heavens will. Many will say to me in that ...[text shortened]... eived the accurate knowledge of the truth[/b], there is no longer any sacrifice for sins left.[/b]

I was just suggesting that the person may have never really accepted Christ as his savior.

The Instructor

Originally posted by Rajk999
[i]For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy comman ...[text shortened]... use they cannot be unborn or they are Gods children, they better have another read of the bible.

Have you all ever thought that squabbling among yourselves may be the devil's work?

Originally posted by JS357
Have you all ever thought that squabbling among yourselves may be the devil's work?

It can also be a way of coming to the knowledge of the truth.

The Instructor

Originally posted by RJHinds
It can also be a way of coming to the knowledge of the truth.

The Instructor

How's it going?

Originally posted by JS357
How's it going?

Slow, but sure.

The Instructor