Originally posted by ivanhoeYes. If you read my post about this poll elsewhere, I warned people that the questions seemed to be slightly leading. I went to the original source and checked it out.
Which facts ? You mean the "facts" produced by the "Beirut Center for Research and Information" ......
By the way have you checked out the article's author, Nicholas Blanford .....
I was being responsible and balanced, you see.
On the other hand, people in Lebanon are not naive about the political situation and Hezbollah, so the phrasing of the poll question won't skew results as much as they might in other cases.
I pointed out the drawbacks of the poll; on the other hand, it is a poll (unlike Philodor's simple assertion); and it is Lebanese (unlike MeNA).
Originally posted by dottewell.... and ?
I'll let people look at the pieces, if they want, and judge for themselves. Unfortunately MeNA publish in French.
The MeNA homepage (this is supposed to be a news agency site, folks) begins by describing Hezbollah as a "Trojan Horse" and explaining that they have been identified as a terrorist organisation.
It then says "MeNA will keep informing read ...[text shortened]... assures us they were aiming at a building where Islamist leaders "would" have been.
-Does this prove that Michaël Béhé is not Lebanese ?
-Does this prove that Michaël Béhé is not "independant" in the way I defined it ?
It seems that only journalists (and debaters at RHP) who agree with your view on the Middle East conflict, positive for Hezbollah and negative for Israel, is able to produce "balanced" articles on the issue. That's very intriguing to say the least.
I guess the marauder must be the most balanced poster on the site in your view. Correct ?
Originally posted by dottewellDottewell: "Yes. If you read my post about this poll elsewhere, I warned people that the questions seemed to be slightly leading."
Yes. If you read my post about this poll elsewhere, I warned people that the questions seemed to be slightly leading. I went to the original source and checked it out.
I was being responsible and balanced, you see.
On the other hand, people in Lebanon are not naive about the political situation and Hezbollah, so the phrasing of the poll question won her hand, it is a poll (unlike Philodor's simple assertion); and it is Lebanese (unlike MeNA).
😀
.... polls are known to be perfect instruments to mislead the public.
Moreover, it is extremely difficult to poll in a country which is in chaos and turmoil.
Someone who takes these polls seriously should take a cold shower.
By the way, who controls this Beirut Center for Research or what's the name ?
Dottewell: " ... and it is Lebanese (unlike MeNA)."
If it is Lebanese we can trust it. If it is Israeli, even in case it is merely Israeli based, it cannot be trusted .......
Dottewell: "I was being responsible and balanced, you see."
I see.
Originally posted by ivanhoeIt's not for me to prove he's not Lebanese; you are the one who claimed he was, so I assume you checked. And frankly I don't care whether he is or not.
.... and ?
-Does this prove that Michaël Béhé is not Lebanese ?
-Does this prove that Michaël Béhé is not "independant" in the way I defined it ?
It seems that only journalists (and debaters at RHP) who agree with your view on the Middle East conflict, positive for Hezbollah and negative for Israel, is able to produce "balanced" articles on the is ...[text shortened]...
I guess the marauder must be the most balanced poster on the site in your view. Correct ?
As for "independent" - well, I've checked as far back as I can be bothered to go on MeNA's website and if that isn't an organisation with an agenda, I don't know what is. There is absolutely no evidence that they welcome and promote a range of views (by which I mean, for example, a voice as virulently pro-Hezbollah as Behe is anti). If by "independent" you mean free to speak his mind, in accordance with those of his paymasters, unchecked by the usual journalistic principles of getting both sides of the story, well then maybe he is independent. Such "independence" is less than worthless.
What is my view of Hezbollah? Please provide evidence. And I guess you weren't reading when I had a long and often bitter argument with No1 about the (Jewish) Israeli's right to self-determination (he believes they have, as a group, no such right). I believe Israel has a right to exist, and I believe Israelis have a right to self-defence.
I've disagreed with No1 about all manner of things. But he will always address contrary points with evidence, and he does not quote misleadingly and selectively from dubious sources.
Originally posted by ivanhoeActually, pointing this out was a joke. You're the one who seems to think this matters - in the case of a journalist you claim is Lebanese.
If it is Lebanese we can trust it. If it is Israeli, even in case it is merely Israeli based, it cannot be trusted .......
Originally posted by dottewellDottewell: "It's not for me to prove he's not Lebanese; you are the one who claimed he was, so I assume you checked. And frankly I don't care whether he is or not."
It's not for me to prove he's not Lebanese; you are the one who claimed he was, so I assume you checked. And frankly I don't care whether he is or not.
As for "independent" - well, I've checked as far back as I can be bothered to go on MeNA's website and if that isn't an organisation with an agenda, I don't know what is. There is absolutely no evidence idence, and he does not quote misleadingly and selectively from dubious sources.
Neither do I ...
Dottewell: "As for "independent" - well, I've checked as far back as I can be bothered to go on MeNA's website and if that isn't an organisation with an agenda, I don't know what is."
Again, you seem to suggest that if a journalist isn't supporting Hezbollah than he cannot be independent and cannot possibly be telling the truth.
Dottewell: "If by "independent" you mean free to speak his mind, in accordance with those of his paymasters, unchecked by the usual journalistic principles of getting both sides of the story, well then maybe he is independent. Such "independence" is less than worthless."
A strawman.
.
Now it is time for our French speaking debators to enter the scene and give their comments.
The article to which the first poster is referring to "Les gens les plus hypocrites de la terre." ("The most hypocritical people on earth" ) is to be found at the following link:
http://www.menapress.com/article.php?sid=1479
You'll soon notice that this is the article I presented in my first post .....
http://www.menapress.com/viewtopic.php?topic=1521&forum=14&4
Auteur Votre article intitulé: Les gens les plus hypocrites de la terre
montagnedelarose@yahoo.fr
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Messages: 1 Posté le: 2006-08-01 16:04
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Bonjour et shalom à tous,
Je suis nouvel abonné et très heureux d'avoir un point de vue israélien, chose que j'apprécie à sa juste valeur; toutefois je suis interpelé par le contenu de l'article dont l'intitulé se trouve dans le sujet ci-dessus.
En effet, vous vous faites l'écho "d'un libanais" qui constaterait tout à coup ce que vous Israéliens savez depuis longtemps.
En faisant croire que c'est "un Libanais" qui parle, je trouve que vous commettez une faute déontologique car, et cela se lit tout au long de l'article, l'on reconnait une "voix israélienne". Faute de jeunesse, peut-être?
Sans rancune et Shalom al kol Israel.
capdevielle.b@free.fr
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Messages: 16 Posté le: 2006-08-01 17:40
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Votre intervention m'a plongée dans un léger état d'ahurissement. Merci de dissiper cet inconfort.
Ainsi vous entendez une voix israélienne ? Où exactement ? N'y en a-t-il qu'une ? Et surtout : comment la reconnait-on ? Peut-on l'imiter à son insu ?
Monsieur Jourdain parlait en prose sans le savoir. Le Bourgeois gentilhomme, Tartuffe... dans quel théâtre l'ai-je entendu ? Oui, je suis troublée. Mais vous comprendrez que l'idée de parler un jour d'une voix israélienne en l'ignorant puisse me pertuber.
Ah ces gens 'les plus hypocrites de la terre' ...
Ai-je vraiment le niveau pour lire de tels articles ? J'imaginais sottement qu'un Libanais était un citoyen d'un pays nommé Liban.
Merci à vous de me communiquer la nouvelle définition du mot. Elle doit être surprenante pour vous permettre d'accuser la Mena de 'faute déontologique'.
Pardonnez-moi, mais je ne suis qu'une femme, et bien ignorante. Ces précisions me sont indispensables.
redaction@menapress.com
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Messages: 1088 Posté le: 2006-08-01 22:51
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Toute personne qui a lu les articles de notre camarade et associé Michaël Béhé, ces 5 dernières années, ne peut intelligemment mettre en doute son identité.
Toute personne qui lit les articles de la Ména connaît notre sens éthique sans faille.
Ce genre de mise en doute, basé sur des théories aussi stupides me dégoûtent. Il s'agit presque de racisme...
Voici l'un des MILLIERS de témoignages reçus ces jours (ce soir) de la part d'un lecteur libanais :
"Lettre ouverte à Monsieur Douste-BLABLA
Pourquoi demander un cessez le feu immédiat, alors que les conditions d'une paix durable au Liban sont encore absente puisque le Hezbollah est présent, sinon pour faire bonne figure ?
Israël doit débarrasser le Sud Liban de la présence du Hezbollah, mouvement fanatique combattant pour une République islamiste, fourbe et "continuellement tiré vers le bas". Ce mouvement a la pleine responsabilité du déclenchement des hostilités, il a sciemment sacrifié des enfants en attirant délibérément les bombes israéliennes sur leur petits corps. Nourrissant le culte du martyr, ils veulent se poser en victime et en résistant. La guerre est aussi médiatique et ils le savent. La seule solution pour ne pas renforcer leur position est qu’il ne remporte aucune victoire, pas même morale et que leur aventurisme leur coûte suffisamment chère qu’ils s’aperçoivent de l’impasse de telles méthodes. Il faut qu’Israël arrive jusqu’en Litanie. Tous les vrais libanais prient secrêtement pour le succès de nos frères juifs; car avec le Hezb sous nos oreillers, on claque du fessier.
La France pourrait ensuite occuper la zone (avec des belges, des canadiens et autres francophones) : Interdire toute présence milicienne jusqu’à l’interdiction du Drapeau du Hezbollah. Cette milice devra être dissoute par le gouvernement pour trouble à l’ordre public, sinon pour acte de terrorisme, ce serait mieux.
Je propose l'échange des juifs et des chrétiens de Syrie contre nos chiites combattifs, la Syrie en aura trés bientôt besoin.
Nos militaires devront former une partie de l’Armée Libanaise. Afin que celle-ce ne se fasse plus jamais doubler par des milices ET EXCLURE TOUT MEMBRE DU HEZBOILLAH. Que l’argent du contribuable français serve au système éducatif dans ce pays. Laissons le reste à la charge des autres Nations. Par la diffusion de notre langue, l’éducation, la vocation du Liban et l’influence de la Mère Patrie, la France, ne s’en trouvera que plus renforcé.
Nous comprenons le souhait de la diplomatie française de ne pas vouloir froissé un grand pays comme l'Iran et ainsi de le désolidarisé de la Syrie mais de la à prétendre que l'Iran joue un rôle stabilisateur dans la Région...On s'étouffe tous de rire sous nos couëttes: pas étonnant que l'Europe soit divisée.
Pour finir Monsieur, le ministre, je vous crie de tout mon coeur: VIVE ISRAEL A BAS LE HEZBOLLAH
Nicolas ZAHAR
Un Libanais vivant dans le sud de la France"
Jean Tsadik
emmanuel_seitelbach@hotmail.com
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Messages: 7 Posté le: 2006-08-03 13:06
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Peut-etre qu'une page du site internet de la Mena pourrait comporter une presentation des journalistes avec leur nationalité, leurs anecdotes et le lieu ou ils sont basés, etc...
Nous sommes privilegiés de pouvoir interagir personnellement avec les journalistes d'une agence de presse. Ils nous paraissent moins anonymes que ceux des autres journaux.
redaction@menapress.com
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Messages: 1088 Posté le: 2006-08-04 08:49
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On peut, en effet, envisager un chat avec les journalistes de la Ména.
Mais seulement après la guerre, tout notre petit monde est bien trop occupé et éparpillé sur le terrain pour songer à le faire avant cela,
Stéphane Juffa
Originally posted by ivanhoeHow bizarre to post a forum comments page! Here is the original article:
.
[b]Now it is time for our French speaking debators to enter the scene and give their comments.
The article to which the first poster is referring to "Les gens les plus hypocrites de la terre." ("The most hypocritical people on earth" ) is to be found at the following link:
http://www.menapress.com/article.php?sid=1479
You'll soon notice ...[text shortened]... r à le faire avant cela,
Stéphane Juffa[/b]
http://www.menapress.com/article.php?sid=1475
I'd particularly like to know what this paragon of balanced journalism meant by:
Et, au nom de mon peuple, je veux exprimer ma reconnaissance infinie aux parents des victimes israéliennes, civiles et militaires, dont les êtres aimés sont aussi tombés pour que je puisse vivre debout dans mon identité. Qu’ils sachent que je les pleure avec eux.
And, since we are interested in the veracity of the "facts" of this matter, what's all this talk about satellite photos? Ivanhoe, does he have satellite photos showing the scale of the distruction of Lebanon is much less than we thought? He has ACTUAL SATELLITE PHOTOS of the damage?
That would be a VERY interesting fact, I admit!
Originally posted by dottewellDottewell: "I'd particularly like to know what this paragon of balanced journalism meant by: ... "
How bizarre to post a forum comments page! Here is the original article:
http://www.menapress.com/article.php?sid=1475
I'd particularly like to know what this paragon of balanced journalism meant by:
Et, au nom de mon peuple, je veux exprimer ma reconnaissance infinie aux parents des victimes israéliennes, civiles et militaires, dont les êtres ...[text shortened]... s ACTUAL SATELLITE PHOTOS of the damage?
That would be a VERY interesting fact, I admit!
I never claimed the article was a "paragon of balanced journalism". I didn't even claim it was an example of "balanced journalism".
The Fallacy of the Straw Man .... again.
Originally posted by dottewell[/i]Dottewell: "How bizarre to post a forum comments page!"
How bizarre to post a forum comments page! Here is the original article:
http://www.menapress.com/article.php?sid=1475
I'd particularly like to know what this paragon of balanced journalism meant by:
[i]Et, au nom de mon peuple, je veux exprimer ma reconnaissance infinie aux parents des victimes israéliennes, civiles et militaires, dont les êtres as ACTUAL SATELLITE PHOTOS of the damage?
That would be a VERY interesting fact, I admit!
It wouldn't be so bizarre to you if you would be able to read and understand French.
Dottewell: "I'd particularly like to know what this paragon of balanced journalism meant by: ... "
Why ? You stated you were not interested in the question whether the article's author was Lebanese or not ... or is there some other thing bothering you ?
Dottewell: "And, since we are interested in the veracity of the "facts" of this matter, what's all this talk about satellite photos? Ivanhoe, does he have satellite photos showing the scale of the distruction of Lebanon is much less than we thought? He has ACTUAL SATELLITE PHOTOS of the damage?
I don't think so ..... but what makes you think he has ?
Originally posted by dottewellDottewell: " ... I had a long and often bitter argument with No1 about the (Jewish) Israeli's right to self-determination (he believes they have, as a group, no such right). I believe Israel has a right to exist, and I believe Israelis have a right to self-defence."
It's not for me to prove he's not Lebanese; you are the one who claimed he was, so I assume you checked. And frankly I don't care whether he is or not.
As for "independent" - well, I've checked as far back as I can be bothered to go on MeNA's website and if that isn't an organisation with an agenda, I don't know what is. There is absolutely no evidence ...[text shortened]... idence, and he does not quote misleadingly and selectively from dubious sources.
Where can I find this discussion? A link would be nice.
Since it seems I don't speak French, perhaps you'd be so good as to translate the section I posted. I'd love to know what it said.
It's good to see you admit your belief that the best way to fight what you see as propoganda from one side is with propoganda from the other.
What are the salient facts you think this article brings to light which have been ignored elsewhere?
Originally posted by ivanhoeIvanhoe: Reading this article one cannot but conclude that the world media fail to report the Lebanon events in a more balanced way. The interpretation which dominates the press headlines are the usual scoops emanating from the Hezbollah propaganda factories.
[b]Dottewell: "I'd particularly like to know what this paragon of balanced journalism meant by: ... "
I never claimed the article was a "paragon of balanced journalism". I didn't even claim it was an example of "balanced journalism".
The Fallacy of the Straw Man .... again.[/b]
Are you not implicitly claiming that this article is "balanced" unlike the stuff from the "Hezbollah propaganda factories" that is on say the BBC or MSNBC?
The piece criticizes the elected Prime Mininister of Lebanon, the elected President of Lebanon, the leaders of various influential Lebanese political parties who control the majority of seats in Lebanon's parliament like Michael Aroun and Hakiri while slavishly praising the Israeli invaders. Then he claims the "overwhelming majority" of Lebanese agree with him, something last year's election returns don't seem to support. Do you know what the term "fifth columnist" means?