Bush & Kerry, are either one right for America?

Originally posted by rapalla7
bbarr,


"There is an interesting tendency for the anti-choice folks to project their own psychologies onto fetuses, but that is an error. Fetuses, especially early in their development, don't have any psychologies at all."

Hope you dont mind me parseling that out of one of your earlier posts.

This statement may have confused me. Who are you talking about when you say "anti-choice folks".


Mike

I'm using the term 'anti-choice' to refer to those who think that a woman does not have the right to choose to have an abortion prior to the third trimester. I'm not using 'anti-choice' as a synonym for 'religious' or 'Christian', as many religious folk, Christian and otherwise, believe that a woman has the right to choose to have an abortion prior to the third trimester. This is just how I am using the term. Somone else may refer to me as 'anti-choice' because I think that the woman does not have the right to choose to have an abortion in the thrid trimester unless her life is in danger.

Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
so you can kill a man once he is drugged and cant feel it???

that's how they execute prisoners in the USA

Originally posted by bbarr
I'm using the term 'anti-choice' to refer to those who think that a woman does not have the right to choose to have an abortion prior to the third trimester. I'm not using 'anti-choice' as a synonym for 'religious' or 'Christian', ...[text shortened]... e an abortion in the thrid trimester unless her life is in danger.

Ok then I misunderstood what you meant, I thought that you were referring to 'just' the christian folks. You have taken the wind from my sails.........

bbarr,says"Somone else may refer to me as 'anti-choice' because I think that the woman does not have the right to choose to have an abortion in the thrid trimester unless her life is in danger."

It is funny you would say this; because I have had some self proclaimed pro-lifers say that they believe abortions are acceptable to measuring degrees. I am pro-choice to the same level I guess, that you are labeled 'anti-choice'.......How can that be? LOL

Mike

Originally posted by bbarr
[b]Stop the presses! Ivanhoe presented an argument!

O.K., let's take this slow. Here is what you claimed:

an individual egg or an individual sperm cannot develop consciousness, only after they've melted together and formed a new, different and unique entity, a new human being.

Here's the response:

You haven't shown that an individ ...[text shortened]... ations on presenting an argument, though. Let's hope you make a habit of it![/b] 😀

Cheers![/b]

whitout any interference sperm and eggs will never become conscious.
Whitout any interference a fetus has a great chance of becomming concious.
Whitout any interference my life will end out of old age, disease or an accident.
Whit interference my life will end because someone else killed me.

Originally posted by elvendreamgirl
that's how they execute prisoners in the USA

is that a good thing???

Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard

Whitout any interference a fetus has a great chance of becomming concious.

This is false. Roughly half of successful conceptions fail to develop past twenty weeks, and that doesn't include those that are aborted. Consciousness doesn't usually appear before this point. You can research this yourself in the New England Journal of Medicine. Further, massive interference is required to provide a fetus with the environment necessary to develop successfully. Think of all that goes into maintaining a healthy uterine environment. The fetus must be carried, nourished, kept free from toxins, the mother must remain relatively healthy, etc. Further, you still havent' given me any reason why you think the potential to develop consciousness is sufficient for having rights.

Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
When you refer to YOU, you refer to an individual being. And when you refer to YOUR mother , you refer to another individual being. How can these two ever be the same???

Dear god, here's what I'm saying: A fetus isn't quite an individual yet. It's still growing inside of it's mother. I AM NOT. I think the fetus has very few (if any) rights until after the first trimester. There is a difference between a fetus in the first trimester and I (I have thoughts and feelings, the fetus does not; don't ask me if I would care if my mother had an abortion, because the answer is no because I wouldn't have been able to care).

Originally posted by Remora91
Dear god, here's what I'm saying: A fetus isn't quite an individual yet. It's still growing inside of it's mother. I AM NOT. I think the fetus has very few (if any) rights until after the first trimester. There is a difference between ...[text shortened]... ause the answer is no because I wouldn't have been able to care).

Remorah91,

Don't apologize for being right.

I am an athiest. You are right. Every "Potential" life if real. All we have in this world is "potential". I could have. I should have. I would have. I Will.

Every being is "potential". Then "viable". Then "Born". Are they less because of a word?"

Just dont tell my wife. She will whack me good. You are on the right track. What is gained by obtaining the world, if you lose your soul?

You and everyone knows right and wrong. Just a matter of being comfortable with being right. Lots of pressure to conform. Forget it. Follow you own soul.

A Good Athiest, who knows good and evil...

Mike

Originally posted by StarValleyWy
Remorah91,

Don't apologize for being right.

I am an athiest. You are right. Every "Potential" life if real. All we have in this world is "potential". I could have. I should have. I would have. I Will.

Every being is "potential". Then "viable". Then "Born". Are they less because of a word?"

Just dont tell my wife. She will whack m ...[text shortened]... o conform. Forget it. Follow you own soul.

A Good Athiest, who knows good and evil...

Mike

Words of wisdom indeed.

Originally posted by bbarr
This is false. Roughly half of successful conceptions fail to develop past twenty weeks, and that doesn't include those that are aborted. Consciousness doesn't usually appear before this point. You can research this yourself in the New England Journal of Medicine. Further, massive interference is required to provide a fetus with the environment necessary ...[text shortened]... any reason why you think the potential to develop consciousness is sufficient for having rights.

so its the word great that you have a problem with now...fine, lets call it A chance ( how to you think animal give birth to their children?? whithout interference)

Tell me why being alive, human, and having the potential to be concious does not give you the right to be alive???

Originally posted by Remora91
Dear god, here's what I'm saying: A fetus isn't quite an individual yet. It's still growing inside of it's mother. I AM NOT. I think the fetus has very few (if any) rights until after the first trimester. There is a difference between a fetus in the first trimester and I (I have thoughts and feelings, the fetus does not; don't ask me if I would care i ...[text shortened]... my mother had an abortion, because the answer is no because I wouldn't have been able to care).

maybe you shoud read through the rest that i posted in this forum again and you will better understand what i mean...
But do you denie that your life started when the egg of your mother and the sperm of your father got together???

Originally posted by StarValleyWy
Remorah91,

Don't apologize for being right.

I am an athiest. You are right. Every "Potential" life if real. All we have in this world is "potential". I could have. I should have. I would have. I Will.

Every being is "potential". Then "viable". Then "Born". Are they less because of a word?"

Just dont tell my wife. She will whack m ...[text shortened]... o conform. Forget it. Follow you own soul.

A Good Athiest, who knows good and evil...

Mike

who are you to decide what a good atheist is??? Im an Atheist myself, so im not defending this because the bible tell me so...Im defending this because i think and feel it is right.

Originally posted by LordOfTheChessboard
maybe you shoud read through the rest that i posted in this forum again and you will better understand what i mean...
But do you denie that your life started when the egg of your mother and the sperm of your father got together???

I don't have time, much less could I care to read all those posts. I'm saying that my life wasn't quite human yet when I was a fetus in the first trimester. Humans can feel and think, I couldn't. And even if it was a life, it wasn't worth putting my mother in harms way. It'd be selfish of me to say that my life as a fetus in the first trimester (with no thoughts or feelings) was more important than my mothers life (who could think and feel pain).

It's the woman's body, let her get an abortion if she wants. It's not anyones business what she does to her body, especially if it's to save her life. And you have to understand that women don't just get an abortion. Usually it's something they agonize over and finally decide it'd be best for everyone if the child was never born.

Originally posted by Remora91
I don't have time, much less could I care to read all those posts. I'm saying that my life wasn't quite human yet when I was a fetus in the first trimester. Humans can feel and think, I couldn't. And even if it was a life, it wasn't worth putting my mother in harms way. It'd be selfish of me to say that my life as a fetus in the first trimester (with ...[text shortened]... ing they agonize over and finally decide it'd be best for everyone if the child was never born.

-a drugged man can't think or feel pain does that make him any less human and does it justify killing him???
- if you would have read my last posts you would have seen that i think abortion shoud not be allowed with some exceptions to this. by that i mean if the mothers life is in danger. or if she was raped.
- i agree that its not anyone's business what the mother does to her body, but like i explained a fetus is not part of her body its another living being.
- the women does not even have to care of the child or raise it, there are more then enough people willing to care and raise the child with all the love it deserves.

Originally posted by Remora91
I don't have time, much less could I care to read all those posts. I'm saying that my life wasn't quite human yet when I was a fetus in the first trimester. Humans can feel and think, I couldn't. And even if it was a life, it wasn't worth putting my mother in harms way. It'd be selfish of me to say that my life as a fetus in the first trimester (with ...[text shortened]... ing they agonize over and finally decide it'd be best for everyone if the child was never born.

I have never had to deal with the situation myself, I am not a woman. I cant even begin to immagine how hard it would be. It is easy for me, to say that I have a stand about abortion because it has never been something I have had to deal with.
I reserve the right to change my mind.

Mike