Did someone hit a mute button?

Originally posted by spruce112358
For this actual attack, no.

I do blame Israel for creating the refugee problem and then refusing to take meaningful steps to resolve it.

One result of that continuing obstinacy is that the camps are recruiting grounds for extremists. A second result is that the host countries are getting extremely tired of playing host -- who would not after 60 years?

It is clear whose fault this is -- Israel's.

What say you of all the Jews driven out of the Arab lands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

Originally posted by Merk
http://www.canada.com/components/print.aspx?id=96c43ca9-ec26-470a-adda-93476ff79799

Last week, the Lebanese army attacked a squalid Palestinian refugee camp that's become infested with Islamist suicide terrorists and guerilla fighters. On May 20, government troops surrounded the camp, with tanks and artillery pieces shelling it at close range. Army snipers g ...[text shortened]... ly comes cheap -- but only when it's drawn by other Muslims.

Hear, hear.

When, if ever, will the lefties change their positions in favour of peace for all sides involved instead of scapegoating and bashing Israel for everything that goes wrong in the Middle East ?

Originally posted by Merk
How is it not, at least equally the fault of the Palestinians? They had a chance to have a state and didn't except. The reason the Pelestinians don't have a state, is because they chose not too.

It's not the Palestinians fault because they did not invade Israel, take Israeli homes and land, and turn the Israelis out to live in camps in Lebanon.

Palestinians "had a chance and didn't accept"? So...I get to grab your stuff, and if I give you "a chance" to get it back and for some reason you don't take it -- well that's it. It's legally mine. Is that the argument you want to make?

As for choosing not to...please.

Originally posted by spruce112358
It's not the Palestinians fault because they did not invade Israel, take Israeli homes and land, and turn the Israelis out to live in camps in Lebanon.

Palestinians "had a chance and didn't accept"? So...I get to grab your stuff, and if I give you "a chance" to get it back and for some reason you don't take it -- well that's it. It's legally mine. Is that the argument you want to make?

As for choosing not to...please.

I'm talking about the partition plan that they didn't accept. That was not taken from them by the Jews. That combined with decades of terrorism leads me to believe that they are equal partners in this mess.

Israeli settlements in, and Israeli control of, Palestinian territories are a separate issue. At least in my opinion. For that, blame certainly cannot be placed on the Palestinians.

Both parties are responsible for the mess that exists today.

Originally posted by torch71
What say you of all the Jews driven out of the Arab lands.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

I don't defend it, but it is yet another problem caused by the creation of the state of Israel -- or rather, a problem resulting from the Israel was created. Arabs are kicked out of Palestine (into neighboring countries), so Jews in those neighboring Arab countries are scapegoated. Some Jews obviously emigrated to Israel, of course.

It's all very tit-for-tat.

Originally posted by Merk
Both parties are responsible for the mess that exists today.

Funny how it always comes back to that point.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Funny how it always comes back to that point.

I can't see it any other way though. While I see the Palestinian behavior as absolutely disgusting and not worthy of even the slightest amount of respect, the Jews on the other hand have been absolutely retarded in their handling of the situation. How many years does it take to figure out that settlements and control of the territories doesn't work?

Originally posted by spruce112358
I don't defend it, but it is yet another problem caused by the creation of the state of Israel -- or rather, a problem resulting from the Israel was created. Arabs are kicked out of Palestine (into neighboring countries), so Jews in those neighboring Arab countries are scapegoated. Some Jews obviously emigrated to Israel, of course.

It's all very tit-for-tat.

So how far back are you talking about? Are you talking about 1948 or are we going back to the pigeon holding of the Jews by Arabs since the 1200's.

Originally posted by torch71
So how far back are you talking about? Are you talking about 1948 or are we going back to the pigeon holding of the Jews by Arabs since the 1200's.

He's only going back far enough to support his case.

Originally posted by Merk
He's only going back far enough to support his case.

Thats what I was thinking as well. Lets not talk about the present, lets keep remembering the past but not too far in the past.

Originally posted by torch71
Thats what I was thinking as well. Lets not talk about the present, lets keep remembering the past but not too far in the past.

Current Palestinian-Israeli problems date back to the 1920s, when plans to found a state of Israel really got into swing and people started hurting each other. You can trace a long string of historical causes back from that, but it wouldn't be terribly relevant to the issue at hand. Most Israelis are concerned with the security of their modern nation rather than harking back to the days of King David.

Funnily enough, for different reasons, there was a two-state solution in ancient times: Judaea and Samaria.

What on earth do you mean by "pigeon holding"?

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Current Palestinian-Israeli problems date back to the 1920s, when plans to found a state of Israel really got into swing and people started hurting each other. You can trace a long string of historical causes back from that, but it wouldn't be terribly relevant to the issue at hand. Most Israelis are concerned with the security of their modern nation r ...[text shortened]... ution in ancient times: Judaea and Samaria.

What on earth do you mean by "pigeon holding"?

Dhimmis ( Jews and Christians) were allowed to "practice their religion, subject to certain conditions, and to enjoy a measure of communal autonomy" and guaranteed their personal safety and security of property, in return for paying tribute and acknowledging Muslim supremacy.

Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Current Palestinian-Israeli problems date back to the 1920s, when plans to found a state of Israel really got into swing and people started hurting each other. You can trace a long string of historical causes back from that, but it wouldn't be terribly relevant to the issue at hand. Most Israelis are concerned with the security of their modern nation r ...[text shortened]... ution in ancient times: Judaea and Samaria.

What on earth do you mean by "pigeon holding"?

The guy I buy my cigars from is a Paleo. His position on Israel/Palestine is that Jews and Arabs have never gotten along all that well, but before politics got involved it was much better.

Should we be taking into consideration that genuine self-governance is relatively new to both peoples?

Originally posted by torch71
So how far back are you talking about? Are you talking about 1948 or are we going back to the pigeon holding of the Jews by Arabs since the 1200's.

The wikipedia article you referred to focuses on demographic changes since 1948, so that is how far back I was going.

Prior to that, we have the Ottoman Empire. If you go back to 1200 you are in the time of the Crusading Kingdoms. There is a lot of history there, but not all that relevant to the current conflict.

I mean, should the French suddenly descend on the Holy Land and claim it back because Godfrey of Boullion was once King of Jerusalem?

Originally posted by Merk
Should we be taking into consideration that genuine self-governance is relatively new to both peoples?

Yes. Attempting to turn it into some age-old Ishmael-Abraham (or whatever) issue is futile.