25 May 06
Originally posted by stockenI would agree that it is always better to admit and be able to discuss these things. Getting upset and pretending things don't exist never helps.
Yes, I obviously went about this wrong. I wanted to get this "make it about the poster not the subject" mentality out of the way before continuing. Seems I only made some of you even more disturbed. 😕
Well, let's move on then. You made the good point about how if he repreatedly fantasises about dismembering little children there's a problem. I still main ...[text shortened]... separation between those impulses and real life, there's really no problem?
However, thoughts that pop into your head are one thing but using violence for arousal at will does seem, to me, as if there is an issue of some kind. I'm not saying that someone is a loony or anything but am saying that it is likely that there is a lack of confidence, a feeling of inferiority or at best, some kind of fear of inadequacy at the root of that kind of thing.
I could be wrong of course as I find it hard to identify with those kind of fantasies.
25 May 06
Originally posted by Wheely...if the person fantasising have a problem keeping it disconnected from the real world. Read my post above.
I would say that if a fantasy involves the hurting, physically or mentally of anyone and that is an important aspect of the fantasy then something is wrong.
25 May 06
Originally posted by stockenNo, keeping it disconnected just means the issue has no negative affect on anyone else.
...if the person fantasising have a problem keeping it disconnected from the real world. Read my post above.
Ultimately, it seems to me, that fantasies or actions that are about over powering someone or affirming your own worth (which proving to be a great lover is) can only be of interest if the person fantasizing actually feels a lack of power or a sense of lacking. These things, in my view, ARE damaging to the individual, even if it never affects anybody else. It is these issues which I feel should be addressed.
I'm not saying that anybody who has these kind of fantasies should go and see a shrink and say "help me, I'm a pervert" because I don't think that is the case. But it seems to me, there ARE issues of a more normal nature that manifest themselves in what is ultimately, power play.
25 May 06
Originally posted by stockenYes, but although I agree that there are many normal persons that have "forbidden fantasies" that doesn't mean that these are always meaningless.
Yes, I obviously went about this wrong. I wanted to get this "make it about the poster not the subject" mentality out of the way before continuing. Seems I only made some of you even more disturbed. 😕
Well, let's move on then. You made the good point about how if he repreatedly fantasises about dismembering little children there's a problem. I still main ...[text shortened]... separation between those impulses and real life, there's really no problem?
Every sick pedophile out there must have fantasized BEFORE he actually commited the act. So, yes, there MAY be a problem.
I honestly can't think how such a behaviour can just pop out of the blue without previously having such fantasies (then again, I really can't comprehend such behaviour). His fantasies are not only indicators that something could be wrong but they MAY also haunt him in a way that actually drives him to commit the act.
I'm not saying that cause and effect are well defined. Such fantasies can mean an enormous range of different things or even be meaningless BUT they are still warning signs. As with warnings, they do not always mean that there is actually something wrong, only that there may be something wrong and not necessarily about the thing depicted in the fantasy itself.
25 May 06
2 edits
Originally posted by WheelyWhen you've experienced sex in so many (legal and socially accepted) variations as I have, it becomes something quite natural. Sometimes, the kick you need can only come from the darkest corners of your mind. That we men has rape tendencies in us is no secret. It's built into us more or less. Nothing wrong with using whatever thoughts you have that can arouse you when having sex. Only when it gets out of hand, which I sincerely believe can only happen if you supress the thoughts, is it a problem.
I would agree that it is always better to admit and be able to discuss these things. Getting upset and pretending things don't exist never helps.
However, thoughts that pop into your head are one thing but using violence for arousal at will does seem, to me, as if there is an issue of some kind. I'm not saying that someone is a loony or anything but am s ...[text shortened]... ing.
I could be wrong of course as I find it hard to identify with those kind of fantasies.
Granted, for this line of thinking to work, you must have a strong sense of right or wrong and rest that philosophy on solid principles. You cannot say that in some instances it's ok to do this but in others not. You must be relentless in what's right and wrong (whether it goes against you sometimes or not). If it involves hurting someone emotionally and/or psychologically it's wrong. Thus, it should never be actualised.
But let's look at this from a wider perspective. I didn't want to go here just yet, because this will definitely upset a lot of people. When someone says: "We should bomb that whole country to pieces because they're about to take over the world", then that comment tells perfectly clear that you have a human with dark impulses (the wish to completely destroy other human beings), either trying to justify his/her need to display power or xe's paranoid and scared to the point where anything goes (even something crazy as completely erasing a large group of people from this planet). This is what I believe happens when someone isn't really looking at themselves, recognising their darker sides and decides to form ground principles to live according to, that will allow us to function quite normally (happy and without harming anyone). We keep making moral distinctions that are quite ludicrous. In some cases it's ok to commit the most horrible crime of all, mass-murder, and sometimes it's not. The need for an enemy, and the wish to destroy the same completely, is deeply rooted within us. It's a darker side of us (seen from a social, civilised view). Yet, few will recognise this. Most people readily accept the ridiculous notions of selective atrocities.
Perhaps this is the very reason some of us do find it hard to separate fantasy from real life. Some men goes to Thailand to act out their darkest sexual fantasies, instead of keeping them where they belong (in the head). For some reason, those thai children and women are less worth than the women at home. That's another example of how a person's moral has been weakened to the point that thoughts like rape and pedophilia is dangerous. Keeping fantasy separate from reality is therefore a matter of having solid principles you live according to. The solution is not to condemn the thoughts in themselves and try to somehow remove them (with drugs or therapy or whatever). In some cases, the thoughts just can't be removed. They're an intrinsical part of the person's mind.
Edit: Having said that I can easily see how it's not that simple. Some people have come to a point where separation is practically impossible and need help. That's where psychologists comes into the game. They deal with the already damaged person. I'm trying to understand how someone can get to that point in the first place, where rooking the basic principles is necessary to feel good about some of the things xe does.
25 May 06
Originally posted by PalynkaPerhaps this will be interesting. It actually pussles me because I always thought that fantasy had to come before the act. Those who claim they didn't fantasise about it before comitting the act may have been taken by surprise at their desire simply because they never allowed such thoughts to surface, but that is pure speculation on my part. It's interesting none the less:
Every sick pedophile out there must have fantasized BEFORE he actually commited the act. So, yes, there MAY be a problem.
"Rape fantasies, for instance, are far more common than rapes themselves. And as an extreme example, consider that only 22 percent of child molesters say they had sexual fantasies about kids before their first molestation. So unusual fantasies are a concern only when they become compulsive or exclusive, or for individuals "in whom the barrier between thought and behavior has been broken," say Leitenberg and Henning."
From: http://www.psychologytoday.com/articles/pto-19950901-000019.html
25 May 06
Originally posted by stockenWithout knowing your specific circumstances, I too, have been around the block a bit and even now, as a single foreigner in Norway, finding female company of many different types is not actually a problem 🙂
When you've experienced sex in so many (legal and socially accepted) variations as I have, it becomes something quite natural. Sometimes, the kick you need can only come from the darkest corners of your mind. That we men has rape tendencies in us is no secret. It's built into us more or less. Nothing wrong with using whatever thoughts you have that can arous ...[text shortened]... ic principles is necessary to feel good about some of the things xe does.
However, I dispute this idea that rape is a common male fantasy. If it is, I'd like to hear from other guys that will admit to it because while the resultant uncontrolled sex might be a turn on, the actual total domination, viciousness and violence of it turns me right off. I'd much rather have the passionate and energetic sex with someone who was equally as enthusiastic as I.
I would ask you to be sure that these kind of fantasies are not a reflection of something else. I'm not talking about dark corners, hidden beasts etc because I truly don't believe they exist. We are a civilized lot but we are prone to believing everyone else is better than we are. This, is, I believe the root of power fantasies.
As I said before though, I might be wrong because I can't quite get a handle on the arousal in these kind of fantasies.
25 May 06
The thing with psychology is that there are many grey areas.
From the same site:
http://www.psychologytoday.com/conditions/pedophilia.html
Symptoms
Over a period of at least 6 months, recurrent, intense sexually arousing fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors involving sexual activity with a prepubescent child or children (generally age 13 years or younger).
The fantasies, sexual urges, or behaviors cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning.
The person is at least age 16 and at least 5 years older than the child or children in the first category.
Note: Do not include an individual in late adolescence involved in an ongoing sexual relationship with a 12- or 13-year-old.
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Something is amiss with the data you present and this description of the symptoms of pedophilia.
Like I said, I believe such fantasies are warning signs. If I had such fantasies on a more than once occasion, I would definitely seek counsel. I think some people associate seeking counsel with having problems, but it can and should be done prophilatically (spelling?) in the same way as a medical check-up.
25 May 06
1 edit
Originally posted by WheelyNow we're talking. 🙂
Without knowing your specific circumstances, I too, have been around the block a bit and even now, as a single foreigner in Norway, finding female company of many different types is not actually a problem 🙂
However, I dispute this idea that rape is a common male fantasy. If it is, I'd like to hear from other guys that will admit to it because while the r ight be wrong because I can't quite get a handle on the arousal in these kind of fantasies.
Ok, most men won't admit to such fantasies unless talking in confidence with someone. So, the only information you'll get about this is when viewed in statistics provided by researchers.
I do believe that most men who fantasise about rape from time to time don't actually want it to be violent. There was an article written a few years back in a paper, but I'm sorry I can't provide a link. It was something about how a convicted pedophile said he never really got that the child he molested over a three year timespan didn't like it. He had become so sick, that he actually managed to convince himself that the child really wanted it. Of course, the child said that he was simply scared and confused.
What I'm trying to get at is that most men have this desire to take a woman. It's not something constantly hanging over our heads. I too much prefer thrusting forward inside a woman who's looking me in the eyes and says yes and more; a woman who's happy to have me there. Rape fantasies, like violent fantasies (perhaps fantasy is the wrong word - it's more like random thoughts popping up) usually only surface when we're somehow in disagreement with someone. I am so mad, or provoced by this person that I can just kill him/her! See? It's not something that will knock over your sense of right and wrong, but the temper is definitely there. And if not understood properly it can be quite overwhelming I'd think.
25 May 06
Originally posted by PalynkaAnd there you go. 🙂
Like I said, I believe such fantasies are warning signs. If I had such fantasies on a more than once occasion, I would definitely seek counsel. I think some people associate seeking counsel with having problems, but it can and should be done prophilatically (spelling?) in the same way as a medical check-up.
"the offenders are apt to delude themselves into viewing their actions are beneficial to the children, i.e., they are contributing to the children’s development or the children are enjoying the acts; however, they will be sure to tell the children not to alert their parents or authorities to the activities."
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This is precisely such a moment where the pedophile has crossed the lines from harmless thoughts to actual act. This is where it becomes wrong. If someone is having these thoughts popping up, but aren't really inclined to live them out, I still maintain there's no problem.
Although, if the thoughts disturb the person having them, and (s)he wants to realise where they come from, seeing a professional psychologist is definitely the way to go. I'd say if they become disturbing, they're fixated thoughts, and not mere entertainment or whatever you can call them when you're not really tempted to act on them. From my previous link:
"Research shows, for example, that persons raised in heavily religious households, where "evil" thoughts are regarded as evil deeds-in-waiting, are more likely than their non-religious counterparts to fixate on thoughts they feel are sinful or otherwise inappropriate."
25 May 06
Originally posted by stockenThis bit I don't get and rather hope you're wrong about it being common. Why would someone want to "take" someone else. What is it about that thought that is attractive? For me, it's seems a power thing, an ownership thing, something that gives the fantasizer (word?/spelling?) an affirmation of their own feeling of superiority.
What I'm trying to get at is that most men have this desire to take a woman. It's not something constantly hanging over our heads. I too much prefer thrusting forward inside a woman who's looking me in the eyes and says yes and more; a woman who's happy to have me there. Rape fantasies, like violent fantasies (perhaps fantasy is the wrong word - it's more li ...[text shortened]... definitely there. And if not understood properly it can be quite overwhelming I'd think.
Why would someone need that unless they felt somehow, disempowered, weak or otherwise inferior to some extent or another. Possibly a need to prove to themselves their own self image.
I don't know, maybe I'm over analyzing it but what turns us on comes from something within us, either biological or mental.
Also, why would these things happen most often when someone angers you? Would it be that it's the time when self worth verification is most needed?
25 May 06
Originally posted by stockenHaving these thoughts, without acting them, are harmful to the paedophile, who should seek treatment.
This is precisely such a moment where the pedophile has crossed the lines from harmless thoughts to actual act. This is where it becomes wrong. If someone is having these thoughts popping up, but aren't really inclined to live them out, I still maintain there's no problem.
Similarly, those who entertain serious thoughts of rape and murder should also seek help; the latter cannot yet be called "murderers" but can perhaps be called "psychopaths".
Most people who say: "I could murder him!" are not entertaining thoughts of murder. Most people do not, whatever you say, fantasise about rape.
To insist that the only important dividing line is between thinking and doing is correct only in a legal sense.
25 May 06
1 edit
Originally posted by WheelyIt's not something that is logically explainable. In some cases it really is a domination thing, the need to own. And it can have it's roots in insecurity. Of course. The point is that those emotions surface from time to time, and with them come the thoughts.
This bit I don't get and rather hope you're wrong about it being common. Why would someone want to "take" someone else?
If it's a problem as in the person having a hard time restraining him/herself, it's important to get to the root of the problem and figure out how to help that person deal with it. That is something we cannot possibly hope to do here. It takes years of studies and experience before you can even dream of handling a person with problems like this.
If it's not a problem like above, I don't see the need for councelling. The cause of those thoughts can be quite interesting to discuss though, but not even modern psychology has been able to explain why we have undesirable thoughts from time to time.
So, if we're having such a discussion I don't see how we can rely on anything but personal speculations. It would be interesting though (if people can keep the discussion detached from the people doing the talking). 🙂
I feel like we've reached a dead-end here. I think it's important to make the distinction between people having unaccepted fantasies but able to handle them without problem and people who can't handle their fantasies well. Most of you seem to disagree. Most of you seem to think that such fantasies are the first signs of someone about to go nuts.
Perhaps I should sit down and think this through. If it's true then I am a potential rapist. I never thought of myself that way simply because to me the fantasies and the real world are quite apart from each other. They don't even get mixed a little (except in consentual roleplay). I'd have no problem talking to a real psychologist about it either.
Like Arnold put it: "I'll be back" 🙂