Open letter calls for Scholz to stop arms deliveries to Ukraine

@kevcvs57 said
Hahaha er no the best way to avoid civilian casualties is for Russia to withdraw back to its pre 2022 invasion position and start the negotiations again which would include repetitions to be paid to Ukraine for rebuilding purposes.

Let’s hope you meant reparations, not repetitions. Probably just a typo.

@shallow-blue said
Quite. By surrendering, Ukraine would rely on Russia's good intentions; and Russia has repeatedly proved that it has none.

The problem with this argument is that Russia uses exactly the same argument. They say that NATO has repeatedly proved that they have no good intentions. And they say that Ukraine has repeatedly proved that it is impossible to negotiate anything with Ukraine and they will never keep their promises.

So, the game is such that both sides are using the same argument.

@kevcvs57 said
He’s I think it’s a rational thing to do based on self interest and the morally right thing to do.
I don’t agree with arming civil conflicts where two sides are roughly equal but to stand by while a powerful country destroys a relatively weaker country in your own backyard is the height of stupidity and moral cowardice.

"... to stand by while a powerful country destroys a relatively weaker country in your own backyard is the height of stupidity and moral cowardice."

The problem is that both sides are using the same argument.

Since the 2014 coup in Kyiv, when the Ukrainian domestic war in Donbas began, in Russia, the same argument was often used. Propagandists, journalists, strategists, even generals and even some professors from the Moscow University used that argument. They wrote that the Ukrainians are killing Russians in the backyard of the Russian Federation and that Putin should command Russian Army to openly intervene. They accused Putin of being a coward, a traitor and of high treason.

@moonbus said
Let’s hope you meant reparations, not repetitions. Probably just a typo.

😂 I didn’t see it until after the edit button had gone home for the night.

@eintaluj said
"... to stand by while a powerful country destroys a relatively weaker country in your own backyard is the height of stupidity and moral cowardice."

The problem is that both sides are using the same argument.

Since the 2014 coup in Kyiv, when the Ukrainian domestic war in Donbas began, in Russia, the same argument was often used. Propagandists, journalists, strategis ...[text shortened]... ssian Army to openly intervene. They accused Putin of being a coward, a traitor and of high treason.

Not sure what you mean but to the best of my knowledge a government has a right to try to regain control of its territory from a breakaway faction.
I agree that dead pro Moscow civilians are no more acceptable than dead pro Kyiv civilians but it cannot be denied that the breakaway states were orchestrated and bolstered militarily by Moscow, we’d have to be very naive to believe otherwise.
If the stated aim of the invasion was to establish the Russian military in the Donbas in order to protect civilians there it would have been a lot more acceptable by the international community, but by his own words and deeds Putin established that was not the aim and never will be. In fact an eternal conflict on Ukrainian soil would suit Moscow very well.

@eintaluj said
"... to stand by while a powerful country destroys a relatively weaker country in your own backyard is the height of stupidity and moral cowardice."

The problem is that both sides are using the same argument.

Since the 2014 coup in Kyiv, when the Ukrainian domestic war in Donbas began, in Russia, the same argument was often used. Propagandists, journalists, strategis ...[text shortened]... ssian Army to openly intervene. They accused Putin of being a coward, a traitor and of high treason.

The arguments are largely irrelevant. They are little more than rationalizations. The fact on the ground is that Ukraine is an internationally recognized sovereign territory and that the Russian military has violated a sovereign state’s territorial integrity. It has nothing to do with whether anyone likes or approves of how the current regimes came to power in either Moscow or Kiev.

@kevcvs57 said
😂 I didn’t see it until after the edit button had gone home for the night.

I hate auto-correct. Whenever I text my wife that have mislaid my KEYS again, it comes out that I have mislaid my JEWS again. Proofread everything you post, otherwise it may come back to haunt you (in Camp X-Ray, Guantanamo Bay).

@kevcvs57 said
Not sure what you mean but to the best of my knowledge a government has a right to try to regain control of its territory from a breakaway faction.
I agree that dead pro Moscow civilians are no more acceptable than dead pro Kyiv civilians but it cannot be denied that the breakaway states were orchestrated and bolstered militarily by Moscow, we’d have to be very naive to bel ...[text shortened]... he aim and never will be. In fact an eternal conflict on Ukrainian soil would suit Moscow very well.

"... to the best of my knowledge a government has a right to try to regain control of its territory from a breakaway faction."

Such an answer was expected.

First, do you mean that in one's own territory, a government can conduct genocide undisturbed by other countries?

Second, initially, you made political propaganda using psychological arguments: a stronger country attacks the weaker country in my backyard, are you a coward not to get involved? - Of course, in the case of Donbas's domestic war, you are going to invoke legal arguments instead of psychological or moral arguments: now you are talking about the right of the government to control its own territory. - Then why did not you invoke such legal arguments also in the case of the Russian invasion of Ukraine? Why did not you argue that Ukraine has no legal agreements with my government and, that way, it is not my government's business what the Russians and Ukrainians are doing between themselves?

If you really argue from legal arguments, then there is no legal commitment in my country to send any weapons to some faraway country at the Black Sea.

@moonbus said
The arguments are largely irrelevant. They are little more than rationalizations. The fact on the ground is that Ukraine is an internationally recognized sovereign territory and that the Russian military has violated a sovereign state’s territorial integrity. It has nothing to do with whether anyone likes or approves of how the current regimes came to power in either Moscow or Kiev.

I do not understand at all what you are talking about. Your text is completely out of the context of the discussion. War crimes are war crimes and genocide is genocide. My opponent was talking that Russia attacks the weaker country and we must intervene to not to be cowards. I replied that Ukraine attacked weaker Donbas, but the West ignored it. Now, you are talking about legal matters suddenly. Unfortunately on the legal level, my country has nothing to do with Russia/Ukraine war. If you are talking on the legal level, then forget this psychological manipulation that we "must" to help the weaker one. My country has NO legal "must" concerning Ukraine.

@moonbus said
I hate auto-correct. Whenever I text my wife that have mislaid my KEYS again, it comes out that I have mislaid my JEWS again. Proofread everything you post, otherwise it may come back to haunt you (in Camp X-Ray, Guantanamo Bay).

The bad news is that I probably did proofread it, my problem during working hours is a small keyboard and fat fingers, pretty much anything can happen.

@eintaluj said
"... to the best of my knowledge a government has a right to try to regain control of its territory from a breakaway faction."

Such an answer was expected.

First, do you mean that in one's own territory, a government can conduct genocide undisturbed by other countries?

That's a disreputable, Metal-Brain-level fabrication.

The only one of those two states who has historically already attempted genocide on the other is Russia, in the Holomodor.

It is incumbent upon the whole world to stop it from repeating the experiment.

@eintaluj said
"... to the best of my knowledge a government has a right to try to regain control of its territory from a breakaway faction."

Such an answer was expected.

First, do you mean that in one's own territory, a government can conduct genocide undisturbed by other countries?

Second, initially, you made political propaganda using psychological arguments: a stronger coun ...[text shortened]... e is no legal commitment in my country to send any weapons to some faraway country at the Black Sea.

So still backing Russias genocide in Ukraine then 👍

@eintaluj said
I do not understand at all what you are talking about. Your text is completely out of the context of the discussion. War crimes are war crimes and genocide is genocide. My opponent was talking that Russia attacks the weaker country and we must intervene to not to be cowards. I replied that Ukraine attacked weaker Donbas, but the West ignored it. Now, you are talking about le ...[text shortened]... nipulation that we "must" to help the weaker one. My country has NO legal "must" concerning Ukraine.

Anyway the good news is that Germany is upping its military support for Ukraine including 50 anti aircraft tanks which will be very handy, so I guess the letter got lost in the post or accidentally on purpose got filed in the shredder.

@shallow-blue said
That's a disreputable, Metal-Brain-level fabrication.

The only one of those two states who has historically already attempted genocide on the other is Russia, in the Holomodor.

It is incumbent upon the whole world to stop it from repeating the experiment.

It is absolutely impossible to discuss with such persons who reply in such a dogmatic manner. Indeed, if such people are dominating in the Western world, then the only option left to Russia and China are the military options and the WW3.

@kevcvs57 said
So still backing Russias genocide in Ukraine then 👍

It is absolutely impossible to discuss with this user. What he/she is doing here is outright slandering.