@no1marauder saidSo Ukraine should just cave in then and let the Russians set up ‘filtration camps’ in Kyiv and Lviv. I say we establish exactly what happened in Bucha and other Russian occupied areas before we leave the rest of Ukraine to the mercy of the Russians.
Of course there's an argument against the strategy; it's highly unlikely to work and just extends the suffering of the Ukrainian people and increase the death toll on both sides.
The West is contributing to Zelensky's delusion that the Ukraine can achieve a military victory with sufficient hardware from the West when the facts on the ground are the Russians continue to ...[text shortened]... ome (though the Finns got a relatively generous peace which is now rather unlikely for the Ukraine).
Shouldn’t we let Ukraine decide how many lives they want to sacrifice rather than decide for them?
The answer is obvious, Russia stops attacking Ukraine and negotiates its way out of the mess it’s got itself and Ukraine into.
Putin has pointed out often enough that it’s the west he is fighting, so we can either fight him directly and risk escalation or enable Ukraine to fight for their own sovereignty and freedom whilst we supply the wherewithal.
I just do not understand how you find the arrogance to tell another country that they should cede their sovereignty to an autocrat possibly capable of the worst war crimes in the book.
29 Apr 22
@eintaluj saidSo he’s a big enough idiot to think that Putin is the least but interested in sitting down and talking to anyone about peace.
"It doesn’t make sense that Russia and Ukraine aren’t sitting down and working out some kind of an agreement. If they don’t do it soon, there will be nothing left but death, destruction, and carnage." - Donald Trump
(If you missed something.)
Are you and Trump listening to Putin at all?
29 Apr 22
@kevcvs57 saidOf course your simplistic views about good guys and bad guys badly clouds your judgment.
So Ukraine should just cave in then and let the Russians set up ‘filtration camps’ in Kyiv and Lviv. I say we establish exactly what happened in Bucha and other Russian occupied areas before we leave the rest of Ukraine to the mercy of the Russians.
Shouldn’t we let Ukraine decide how many lives they want to sacrifice rather than decide for them?
The answer is obvious, Rus ...[text shortened]... y should cede their sovereignty to an autocrat possibly capable of the worst war crimes in the book.
No one has remotely suggested Ukraine surrender and allow Russia to occupy the entire country. But even you, in your occasional lucid moments, recognize that any peace deal will result in a smaller Ukraine than that which existed prior to March 2014. The West should be nudging Zelensky to a realistic negotiating position rather than pouring money into a fantasy of a Ukranian military victory.
29 Apr 22
@kevcvs57 saidIt's obviously you who haven't been listening; Russian negotiators have clearly stated their positions for months.
So he’s a big enough idiot to think that Putin is the least but interested in sitting down and talking to anyone about peace.
Are you and Trump listening to Putin at all?
29 Apr 22
@sonhouse saidI see that someone here thinks that one knows what I "really think" even if I do not say such things and do not think such things.
@EintaluJ
You really think a dude as nuts as Putin would never stoop to nukes in Ukraine? His closest aides say he went total nuts when the war wasn't over in a week like his advisors said. Also, I don't think for a minute if Ukraine did accede to Putin's 'conditions', Putin would go, ok, great, then just continue with the attacks.
Today Putin sent missiles into the heart ...[text shortened]... . Dmitry Muratov is a stanch media freedom advocate targeted directly by Putin. Is that ok with you?
29 Apr 22
@kevcvs57 said"So Ukraine should just cave in then and let the Russians set up ‘filtration camps’ in Kyiv and Lviv. I say we establish exactly what happened in Bucha and other Russian occupied areas before we leave the rest of Ukraine to the mercy of the Russians."
So Ukraine should just cave in then and let the Russians set up ‘filtration camps’ in Kyiv and Lviv. I say we establish exactly what happened in Bucha and other Russian occupied areas before we leave the rest of Ukraine to the mercy of the Russians.
Shouldn’t we let Ukraine decide how many lives they want to sacrifice rather than decide for them?
The answer is obvious, Rus ...[text shortened]... y should cede their sovereignty to an autocrat possibly capable of the worst war crimes in the book.
We see here one believes one's own propaganda.
Accidentally, The Guardian already published an article: the forensic study showed that dead people on the streets of Bucha were killed by shelling. Now, remember that the CIA/NASA satellite photos allegedly proved that these bodies were on the streets of Bucha weeks before the Russian Army left the town. Is it reasonable to posit that the Russian Army was shelling itself? Or isn't it reasonable to remember the Russian reports, when they were in the city, that Ukraine was heavily shelling the southern area of the city? Or do we discuss those dead bodies discovered in the basements after the Russian Army left the town, the tortured and murdered people? Unfortunately, the satellite photos - even the CIA/NASA satellite photos cannot prove that these bodies were in the cellars weeks before the Russian Army left the town.
Besides, only the US (and perhaps also the UK) is making heavy propaganda that all the Ukrainians will be killed if Ukraine makes a peace contract with Russia. Only those countries that do not much suffer from the war in Europe.
So why is one making political propaganda on the chess platform, on the Forum of debates? It is not a debate at all.
29 Apr 22
@kevcvs57 saidIt is pretty clear that it is you who does not know what Trump has said and what Putin has said. You are slandering everyone absolutely arbitrarily.
So he’s a big enough idiot to think that Putin is the least but interested in sitting down and talking to anyone about peace.
Are you and Trump listening to Putin at all?
29 Apr 22
@eintaluj saidHypersonic missiles are not hypersonic near the target.
Air defence systems would be good. But I am afraid that against the hypersonic missiles and cruise missiles Russia uses these interception systems are helpless. Lviv was attacked again with cruise missiles. Air defence systems would probably help against Russian planes and drones and other missiles.
30 Apr 22
@no1marauder saidThe only simpleton here is you No1, the comedic effect comes from the accompanying arrogance and detachment from reality.
Of course your simplistic views about good guys and bad guys badly clouds your judgment.
No one has remotely suggested Ukraine surrender and allow Russia to occupy the entire country. But even you, in your occasional lucid moments, recognize that any peace deal will result in a smaller Ukraine than that which existed prior to March 2014. The West should be nudging Zel ...[text shortened]... listic negotiating position rather than pouring money into a fantasy of a Ukranian military victory.
I’ve said on numerous occasions that I think Ukraine should and probably would be ready to cede Crimea and the Donbas region, basically the pre 2022 invasion positions but it would not be politically possible to just give them away in the hope that Putin would stop there rather than use it as a staging post for another,better organised push.
Furthermore Putin would have to accept that the remaining sovereign state of Ukraine makes its own strategic defensive and economic decisions without any sabre rattling veto from Moscow, neither would the aforementioned ‘breakaway’ / Russian occupied regions have a veto on the state they have ‘left.
30 Apr 22
@eintaluj saidLink!
"So Ukraine should just cave in then and let the Russians set up ‘filtration camps’ in Kyiv and Lviv. I say we establish exactly what happened in Bucha and other Russian occupied areas before we leave the rest of Ukraine to the mercy of the Russians."
We see here one believes one's own propaganda.
Accidentally, The Guardian already published an article: the forensic s ...[text shortened]... king political propaganda on the chess platform, on the Forum of debates? It is not a debate at all.
Oh and stop lying and stop being stupid, you’ve obviously never seen a human body involved in an explosion.
30 Apr 22
@kevcvs57 saidThat deal was possible except that Ukraine would have had to forego any future membership in NATO, something it announced it was willing to do. But Zelensky has been adamant in his refusal to accept any territorial concessions. That position is unrealistic and it is fed by Western officials and media constantly claiming that the Ukraine is "winning" and that all it needs is more and more advanced weapons to defeat the Russians. If the Ukraine continues to cling to that fantasy, it will continue to lose territory and the Russian negotiating position is likely to harden.
The only simpleton here is you No1, the comedic effect comes from the accompanying arrogance and detachment from reality.
I’ve said on numerous occasions that I think Ukraine should and probably would be ready to cede Crimea and the Donbas region, basically the pre 2022 invasion positions but it would not be politically possible to just give them away in the hope that Putin ...[text shortened]... the aforementioned ‘breakaway’ / Russian occupied regions have a veto on the state they have ‘left.
30 Apr 22
@no1marauder saidI think that would have to be his initial stance politically but no one goes into a negotiation with their best offer.
That deal was possible except that Ukraine would have had to forego any future membership in NATO, something it announced it was willing to do. But Zelensky has been adamant in his refusal to accept any territorial concessions. That position is unrealistic and it is fed by Western officials and media constantly claiming that the Ukraine is "winning" and that all it needs ...[text shortened]... antasy, it will continue to lose territory and the Russian negotiating position is likely to harden.
The trick will be to cede these areas without destroying the political unity that is keeping Ukraine the effective defensive force that it is. Probably some special UN backed status initially that will allow a gradual immersion into the Russian state without artillery barrages hurtling both ways across the line of contact.
Given that the pre 2022 invasion population of this region are probably predominantly pro Moscow and anti Kyiv it wouldn’t be reasonable to force them back into a state that they have effectively been at war with for 8yrs.
I think the non NATO status has always been an easier sell given that most grownups are aware of the fact that any Ukrainian application would fall well short of the unanimous vote required.
30 Apr 22
@EintaluJ
One question: Do you think Putin would really follow through if Zelinsky agreed to let Putin have the south? I think if they reached such an agreement, Putin would just go back on his word and attack anyway and BTW, he is massing troops on the border with Moldova which is another sovereign country so it looks like Putin has his sights set on them too.
30 Apr 22
@sonhouse saidI think we need to give up on the idea that Putin is trying to conquer the world.
@EintaluJ
One question: Do you think Putin would really follow through if Zelinsky agreed to let Putin have the south? I think if they reached such an agreement, Putin would just go back on his word and attack anyway and BTW, he is massing troops on the border with Moldova which is another sovereign country so it looks like Putin has his sights set on them too.