31 May 12
Originally posted by sh76I do believe in freedom of speech and I actually tend to be on the side of as few restrictions on that as possible.
Assuming you believe in freedom of speech (which I'm sure you do), does it bother you that someone is punished for expressing an opinion from the pulpit?
I think there is a very good question about what line there is with respect to religion. I think it's important to allow for religious freedom, however, I think religion can't be allowed as an excuse to commit a crime.
I would have a problem if someone was being punished for simply expressing an opinion from the pulpit, but if that authority that is wielded from that pulpit is used to cause criminal acts then that is not merely expressing an opinion.
I'm not sure simply wrapping a priests robes around an opinion somehow makes them somehow immune to it being criminal.
31 May 12
Originally posted by PsychoPawnWould you also say that not disciplining your children is abuse as well?
I think it definitely could be argued that recommending child abuse in the name of punishment could cross the line into incitement. This pastor knows that he's in a position of authority with his congregation and he knows that his sheep will do what he recommends.
I would say beating a child as young as that is lawless action and influencing people wh ...[text shortened]... s will do what he says to do that could be inciting imminent lawless action - i.e. child abuse.
01 Jun 12
Originally posted by whodeyPerhaps you should start a separate thread about Farrakhan's wish to see the laws changed, the chance that such laws could get past Congress and the Senate, and the level of support these changes would have amongst the general public.
Louis Farrakhan, another brilliant religious leader, recently said that stealing, fornicating, and adultry were all worthy crimes of death.
Back to the topic of this thread. The pastor you talked about in your OP was advocating disciplining children as young as 2 months old by "spanking" them with wooden spoons and rods. Do you think what he is advocating could be described as child abuse?
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05 Jun 12
Originally posted by whodeyBecause it's against the law?
http://www.infowars.com/pastor-sentenced-to-2-years-in-prison-for-teaching-that-parents-should-spank-their-children/
In Wisconsin a pastor named Philip Caminiti was sentenced to 2 years in prison by Dane County Circuit Judge Maryann Sumi for simply teaching that parents should spank their children when they misbehave.
How can this be?
05 Jun 12
Originally posted by PsychoPawnThat's not what I asked.
You don't have to beat or spank your children to discipline them.
Spanking a two month old is not discipline, it is abuse.
IMHO, there is a much larger problem with parents in the USA refraining from any discipline or ignoring it, than there is in overdoing it.
05 Jun 12
Originally posted by normbenignYou asked whether it's child abuse to not discipline your child..
That's not what I asked.
IMHO, there is a much larger problem with parents in the USA refraining from any discipline or ignoring it, than there is in overdoing it.
I think that's a matter of what the definition of abuse specifically consists of.
It IS abuse to spank a child under 2 as far as I am concerned.
I would rather a parent refrain from discipline than beat them.
I'm not going to argue whether there is a larger problem with parents abusing their children vs not disciplining their child based only on what your opinion is though.
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by PsychoPawnRespectfully, I agree, but disagree. Surely, beating or spanking could be abuse or not, being a matter of degree.
You asked whether it's child abuse to not discipline your child..
I think that's a matter of what the definition of abuse specifically consists of.
It IS abuse to spank a child under 2 as far as I am concerned.
I would rather a parent refrain from discipline than beat them.
I'm not going to argue whether there is a larger problem with parent ...[text shortened]... ing their children vs not disciplining their child based only on what your opinion is though.
When you look at the public schools in America, there is almost a total lack of any kind of discipline. A teenage stepchild in suburban Detroit, entered his family home and murdered his parents with a baseball bat, critically injuring other family members.
The parents of the teenagers who bombed and shot up Columbine HS a few years ago, had parents that simply didn't know what they were doing, and put them on drugs to keep them under control.
I think it is amply evident that there are many ways that parents abuse children beyond physical beatings, and that all corporal punishment doesn't rise to the level of abuse.
06 Jun 12
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Originally posted by normbenignSurely, beating or spanking could be abuse or not, being a matter of degree.
Respectfully, I agree, but disagree. Surely, beating or spanking could be abuse or not, being a matter of degree.
When you look at the public schools in America, there is almost a total lack of any kind of discipline. A teenage stepchild in suburban Detroit, entered his family home and murdered his parents with a baseball bat, critically injuring o beyond physical beatings, and that all corporal punishment doesn't rise to the level of abuse.
Not just degree, but the child has to know why they are receiving a punishment for spanking to be effective. Spanking a child under the age of two or even three I would say spanking/beating is always abuse since the child wouldn't be completely aware of why they are receiving a punishment and is in effect just hurting the child.
When you look at the public schools in America, there is almost a total lack of any kind of discipline.
The examples you gave were extreme examples and not really necessarily indicative of there not being any discipline at all in public schools. I also suspect those cases were a little more complex than just a lack of discipline.
The real point I was making is that the fact is, you can discipline your children without spanking them at all.
06 Jun 12
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Originally posted by normbenignYes and that has never been something that I have argued or claimed.
I think it is amply evident that there are many ways that parents abuse children beyond physical beatings, and that all corporal punishment doesn't rise to the level of abuse.
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by normbenignAny evidence that it was a lack of discipline that led to these murders, and if so then it looks like the US is doing a fine job with regard to discipline given the rarity of children bludgeoning there parents to death or shooting their school mates en- masse.
Respectfully, I agree, but disagree. Surely, beating or spanking could be abuse or not, being a matter of degree.
When you look at the public schools in America, there is almost a total lack of any kind of discipline. A teenage stepchild in suburban Detroit, entered his family home and murdered his parents with a baseball bat, critically injuring o ...[text shortened]... beyond physical beatings, and that all corporal punishment doesn't rise to the level of abuse.
How do we know that this psychotic behaviour is not the result of being beaten as a child, seems more likely IMO.
06 Jun 12
Originally posted by normbenignIf you have children, I pity them.
Respectfully, I agree, but disagree. Surely, beating or spanking could be abuse or not, being a matter of degree.
When you look at the public schools in America, there is almost a total lack of any kind of discipline. A teenage stepchild in suburban Detroit, entered his family home and murdered his parents with a baseball bat, critically injuring o ...[text shortened]... beyond physical beatings, and that all corporal punishment doesn't rise to the level of abuse.