20 May 08
Originally posted by RetrovirusRetrovirus, for some reason you made no comment about this article:
I believe that the Israeli government is not guilty of action; rather it is guilty of inaction
Published on Monday, April 28, 2008 by The Independent/UK
Israel Is Suppressing a Secret It Must Face
How did a Jewish state founded 60 years ago end up throwing filth at cowering Palestinians?
by Johann Hari
Across the occupied West Bank, raw untreated sewage is pumped every day out of the Jewish settlements, along large metal pipes, straight onto Palestinian land. From there, it can enter the groundwater and the reservoirs, and become a poison. [...] So how did it come to this? How did a Jewish state founded 60 years ago with a promise to be “a light unto the nations” end up flinging its filth at a cowering Palestinian population? [article continues]
The whole article is here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-israel-is-suppressing-a-secret-it-must-face-816661.html
Anyway, here is Johann Hari's follow-up article:
Published on Thursday, May 8, 2008 by The Independent/UK
The Loathsome Smearing of Israel’s Critics
by Johann Hari
In the US and Britain, there is a campaign to smear anybody who tries to describe the plight of the Palestinian people. It is an attempt to intimidate and silence — and to a large degree, it works. There is nobody these self-appointed spokesmen for Israel will not attack as anti-Jewish: liberal Jews, rabbis, even Holocaust survivors.
My own case isn’t especially important, but it illustrates how the wider process of intimidation works. I have worked undercover at both the Finsbury Park mosque and among neo-Nazi Holocaust deniers to expose the Jew-hatred there; when I went on the Islam Channel to challenge the anti-Semitism of Islamists, I received a rash of death threats calling me “a Jew-lover”, “a Zionist-homo pig” and more.
Ah, but wait. I have also reported from Gaza and the West Bank. Last week, I wrote an article that described how untreated sewage was being pumped from illegal Israeli settlements on to Palestinian land, contaminating their reservoirs. This isn’t controversial. It has been documented by Friends of the Earth, and I have seen it with my own eyes.
The response? There was little attempt to dispute the facts I offered. Instead, some of the most high profile “pro-Israel” writers and media monitoring groups — including Honest Reporting and Camera — said I an anti-Jewish bigot akin to Joseph Goebbels and Mahmoud Ahmadinejadh, while Melanie Phillips even linked the stabbing of two Jewish people in North London to articles like mine. Vast numbers of e-mails came flooding in calling for me to be sacked.
Any attempt to describe accurately the situation for Palestinians is met like this. If you recount the pumping of sewage onto Palestinian land, “Honest Reporting” claims you are reviving the anti-Semitic myth of Jews “poisoning the wells.” If you interview a woman whose baby died in 2002 because she was detained — in labour — by Israeli soldiers at a checkpoint within the West Bank, “Honest Reporting” will say you didn’t explain “the real cause”: the election of Hamas in, um, 2006. And on, and on. [article continues]
The whole article is here:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-the-loathsome-smearing-of-israels-critics-822751.html
Any thoughts?
23 May 08
Originally posted by Bosse de NageThat might be a bit of a stretch.
If I'm reading you correctly, the Israeli government has taken great pains to act within the letter of the law while treating the Bedouin as a de facto nuisance that needs to be managed away.
I believe that all it takes is a law enforcement system on auto-pilot, a mostly ignorant/uncaring public and only a few bureaucrats and politians who are bigots and shove sticks into the wheels of the governmental machine.
Then again, I might be wrong.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
They are also considered a biological threat, viz. statements about their breeding rates. This bespeaks a disturbingly instrumental inhumanity on the part of the government: quite simply, people are not treated as people, but as 'problems'. I don't think I need to point out where we've heard that rhetoric before, not to mention the obsession with breeding.
Well, I believe that the government should treat all citizens equally.
On the other hand, the demographic balance in Israel is very fragile... Well, that's no excuse for them anyway. I agree with you on that point.
By the way, I think that the balance that should concern us (that is , Israelis) is the Ultra-Orthodox Vs. Anyone else balance. But I digress.
It's a sheer historical irony to me that the Bedouin are a living link with the past, in that their lifestyle, only recently defunct, was very similar to that of Abraham (not to mention their capacity to breed: "as many as there stars in the sky ... "😉. Yet the official Israeli view is that they must be 'civilised' out of existence.
Ironic indeed.
On the other hand, Abraham actually bought land, that is, with money, not by settling on it and calling it his own...
Ok, that was a bit mean of me. Actually, I can understand both those Bedouins who want to preserve their ancient way of life, those Bedouins who want to embrace the future, and those who want to combine those two approaches.
I can also understand a government that wants to make its citizens more "useful" - as long as the government doesn't force them, that is.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
I do think that bulldozing mosques and houses is action, rather than inaction.
Okay, I see why you can see that as an action.
I however, think that it is the governmental equivalent for automatic responses. When you digest food, do you count it as an action?
Even if you do, you must consider "walking" as more "action-ish".
What I mean by that, is that dealing with illegally constructed building should not count as an action (wheter it is a house in the Negev, a hotel built illegally in the Galilee or a balcony constructed without proper authorization in Tel-Aviv).
Authorizing whole illegally built settlements - now, that is and action.
Your semantics might vary, but I hope you get my point.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Yet you've taken a first step towards acknowledging the inhumanity of your state. Unfortunately, the view that 'Palestine didn't exist', which seems to reflect the general public opinion, is not a great basis on which to treat other people as people.
While there was never a state called Palestine, the Palestinians are a people (again, right of self determination ect.). It's actually a lot like Zionism, you see.
Originally posted by Bosse de Nage
Does Ehud Olmert understand what it is to be human?
Let it be said that :
1. I don't lie Olmert.
2. I never did like him.
3. I didn't vote for him
4. I'll be happy should he resign
I would not call him inhuman. In fact, he is full of human faults.
23 May 08
1 edit
Originally posted by FMFWell, I'm all for the immediate evacuation of the settlements.
Across the occupied West Bank, raw untreated sewage is pumped every day out of the Jewish settlements, along large metal pipes, straight onto Palestinian land. From there, it can enter the groundwater and the reservoirs, and become a poison. [...] So how did it come to this? How did a Jewish state founded 60 years ago with a promise to be “a light unto the nations” end up flinging its filth at a cowering Palestinian population? [article continues]
You just gave me yet another reason for hating them, thanks.
As I said before, I support the establishment of an independent, fully sovereign Palestine, and hope for better neighborly relations with it.
23 May 08
Originally posted by RetrovirusI'm interested. Please digress.
By the way, I think that the balance that should concern us (that is , Israelis) is the Ultra-Orthodox Vs. Anyone else balance. But I digress..
As for Abraham buying land (from Ephron the Hittite, right?) -- did he get a title deed? Can I see it?
The more I look into the Negev situation, the worse it looks. For example,
"Sedentarisation and the surveillance
of illegal settlements are further
promoted by an environmental
paramilitary unit established by
Ariel Sharon in 1976. The ‘Green
Patrol’ has a mandate to pull down
‘illegal’ Bedouin tents, tightly
control herd sizes and grazing areas,
seize flocks, destroy crops planted
without the appropriate permit
as well as impose fines and evict
inhabitants of ‘illegal’ settlements.
Green Patrol raids have resulted in
substantial damage to property and
led to fatalities on several occasions.
When aerial surveillance identifies
unauthorised new construction,
owners may be served with a
demolition order. If they fail to
comply – and many do – they may
be prosecuted. Homeowners are
turned into criminal defendants,
fined and forced to reimburse the
state for the costs of demolition."
http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:Tlr-uEW0f58J:www.fmreview.org/FMRpdfs/FMR26/FMR2620.pdf+bedouin+negev+ownership&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=za&lr=lang_en
n order to acquire the maximum
amount of Arab land for Jewish
settlement of the Negev, Israel has
denied almost all pre-existing land
rights or ownership. Israel regards
the Negev as a vacuum domicilium
or terra nullius, an empty space
yet to be used for settlement. The
Bedouin are seen as rootless nomads
without territorial connection or
rights. Similar legal tools used to
justify the internal displacement
of indigenous populations and
invalidate traditional land ownership
are found in other settler states. Israel
justifies its acquisition policies by
selective interpretation of historical
land laws. Israel argues that all desert
land belongs to the state by virtue
of the mawat (‘dead&rsquo😉 category of
land title introduced in 1858 by the
Ottoman authorities. Israel will only
acknowledge land ownership in the
Negev if a landowner can present
a document issued by the British
mandate administration in 1921 – a
period when hardly any Bedouin
registered their landholdings due to a
combination of traditional reluctance
to cooperate with external authorities,
fear of taxation and lack of concern
that anybody would pose a challenge
to their continued use of the land.
25 May 08
1 edit
Originally posted by RedmikeOkay, thanks.
http://www.playtheimmortalgame.com/board/showthread.php?threadid=93445&page=6
You wrote
Non-jewish israeli citizens have less rights than jewish israeli citizens.
We've already had the point raised about people being kicked out of their homes to make way for jewish settlers in another thread.
And there's discrimination in jobs - many jobs require national service, efficetively meaning jewish-only. And, of course, there's discrimination in immigration. Oh, and buying land.
Whatever the law says, there's massive discrimination in practise.
How can it be both a religion and an ethic group? If I convert to judaism, does it change my ethnicity? It certainly changes my ability to immigrate to israel.
If I'm 'ethnically' jewish, but practise a different religion, do I have the rights of a jewish person in israel? How do I know if I'm ethnically jewish?
Originally posted by Redmike
We've already had the point raised about people being kicked out of their homes to make way for jewish settlers in another thread.
I'm not familiar with that one. You say that Israeli citizens were evicted to make room for other citizens because of their religion? This is unspeakably vile. Are you sure about that?
Originally posted by Redmike
And there's discrimination in jobs - many jobs require national service, efficetively meaning jewish-only. [...]
As I have the number (on speed dial) of a non-Jewish man who works in a classified position in the ministry of defense, I call shenanigans on that one.
Originally posted by Redmike
[...] And, of course, there's discrimination in immigration. [...]
All citizens, regardless of religion or anything else, enjoy the same right to return to Israel. If a Muslim citizen lived in, say, Belgium and wanted to return to Israel, he would have no problem at all.
Originally posted by Redmike
Oh, and buying land
Actually, most of the land in Israel is not private and neither Jews nor anyone else can buy it. But if someone does have private land, he could sell it to whoever he liked.
Originally posted by Redmike
How can it be both a religion and an ethic group? If I convert to Judaism, does it change my ethnicity? It certainly changes my ability to immigrate to Israel.
I hope my posts on the "Torah Law" thread, posted after your post, will help you see my perspectives. In short, it's all about self determination.
Originally posted by Redmike
If I'm 'ethnically' jewish, but practise a different religion, do I have the rights of a jewish person in israel? How do I know if I'm ethnically jewish?
Well, Israel decided (in a feat of "one-upmanship", if you will) to consider anyone Jewish enoght to be killed at the holcoaust to be Jewish enough to receive Israeli citizenship (That means one Jewish grandparent). Nowadays, many people from former USSR used that despite not defining themselves as Jews (although they are a minority among the immigrants from former USSR).
25 May 08
Originally posted by Bosse de NageHaha, I don't know if either were literate...
I'm interested. Please digress.
As for Abraham buying land (from Ephron the Hittite, right?) -- did he get a title deed? Can I see it?
The more I look into the Negev situation, the worse it looks. For example,
[...]
Anyway, I don't think that title deeds were very common in Canaan at ~1300 BCE. Of course, if the Ottomans would have come then, I'm sure he would have properly registered it.
Regarding the Ultra Orthodox...
Well, as part of the deal with Ben Gurion, those belonging to the religious scholarly system are exempt from military service and are given stipends - so they will be able to study full time without needing to "waste time" working. As you can see, it can become a great economic problem. I think we should just limit the amounts of stipends receivers; however, it would be political suicide for any prime minister to do so.
25 May 08
1 edit
Originally posted by RetrovirusI've always wondered why in some circles, talk of Israeli occupation is a bit of a taboo topic. Thx for the posts btw. Its refreshing to hear non generic responses
{An anecdote: We actually still use the word Tabu, the Arabian form of the word Tapu (the Turkish name of the registry), as the unofficial yet most used name for our current land registry}
25 May 08
Originally posted by kmax87You are indeed welcome.
I've always wondered why in some circles, talk of Israeli occupation is a bit of a taboo topic. Thx for the posts btw. Its refreshing to hear non generic responses
And yes, as a kid I also wandered about the Tabu/Taboo business 😉
25 May 08
1 edit
Originally posted by Retrovirus[/b]The people who're being kicked off their land are the Bedouin, discussed elsewhere.
Okay, thanks.
You wrote
[b]Non-jewish israeli citizens have less rights than jewish israeli citizens.
We've already had the point raised about people being kicked out of their homes to make way for jewish settlers in another thread.
And there's discrimination in jobs - many jobs require national service, efficetively meaning jewish-only. And, Jews (although they are a minority among the immigrants from former USSR).
On job discrimination, a couple of sources:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/ISRAEL0901-04.htm#P706_106299
A discussion of discrimination in Education and Employment.
http://www.law.nyu.edu/journals/jilp/issues/36/36_4_SR-Margalioth.pdf
I'll get the details re the military services point, but I think these show
discrimination exists.
On Immigration:
Good try, but it isn't people who're already israeli citizens who are the point.
It is those who aren't israeli citizens.
Are you seriously claiming that being jewish or not doesn't affect a person's ability to immigrate to israel and become a citizen?
On Land:
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0198/9801088.html
And doesn't your last sentence confirm the discrimination - you need to be jewish to be allowed to acquire israeli citizenship.
26 May 08
2 edits
Originally posted by uzlessI think you are a little too hard on those in the Middle East. Really these statements could be said about most countries around the world. I think that for many the intolerat aspect of the whole situation are the religious elements in the whole situation but really they are no different than anyone else I see around the world.
[ The middle east acts like a bunch of 8 year olds who can't play together nicely.
Is it really so hard to NOT kill someone?
🙄
30 May 08
Originally posted by RedmikeIs this going to go unanswered then?
The people who're being kicked off their land are the Bedouin, discussed elsewhere.
On job discrimination, a couple of sources:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/ISRAEL0901-04.htm#P706_106299
A discussion of discrimination in Education and Employment.
http://www.law.nyu.edu/journals/jilp/issues/36/36_4_SR-Margalioth.pdf
I'll get ...[text shortened]... he discrimination - you need to be jewish to be allowed to acquire israeli citizenship.[/b]
22 Jun 08
Originally posted by Redmike
The people who're being kicked off their land are the Bedouin, discussed elsewhere.
You make it sound as if they were kicked from a settlement because Jews desired it, then after they were kicked out the Jews moved in. In reality, the Bedouins construct structures on land not belonging to them without proper authorization, and the structure is then destroyed (as would be the fate of a structure that was illegally built by Jews)
On job discrimination, a couple of sources:
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/israel2/ISRAEL0901-04.htm#P706_106299
A discussion of discrimination in Education and Employment.
http://www.law.nyu.edu/journals/jilp/issues/36/36_4_SR-Margalioth.pdf
I'll get the details re the military services point, but I think these show
discrimination exists.
Well, first, military service is certainly not “Jewish only”. And while some jobs require military service, it’s only a minor fraction of the jobs in the Israeli market. And those jobs require military service for a good reason – army service is required to work at the ministry of defense and at industries that server as contactors for the military. If you are not trusted to hold an M-16, it’s just logical that you won’t be trusted to refit an F-16, right?
The other type of jobs that require military service is private security companies.
They the training is provided by the military, so it reasonable won’t you agree?
If any citizen faces discrimination at work, he is free to sue – just like in the U.S.
On Immigration:
Good try, but it isn't people who're already israeli citizens who are the point.
It is those who aren't israeli citizens.
Sorry, you were saying that Israel discriminates against non-Jewish CITIZENS in immigration – that make it sound as if Israel does not allow non-Jewish citizens to immigrate, thus attempting to decrease their number (by not allowing them to return once they have settled in another country) which is a serious allegation, I must say.
Apparently you meant non-citizens; I won’t say there is no decimation here, but it is decimation between non-citizens.
Well, that’s does not count; in France, for example, you would have better chances immigrating if you can prove you have France origins. If a Doctor and someone without an academic degree attempt to immigrate to U.S, the doctor will be favored. If Belgium decides to grant automatic citizenship to anyone whose name begins with an A and was born under the sign of Pisces - well, that their right, and there is nothing undemocratic about it.
All countries (or western countries, at least) pick among potential immigrants some, and don’t give the others citizenship – of course it’s discriminatory.
Are you seriously claiming that being Jewish or not doesn't affect a person's ability to immigrate to Israel and become a citizen?
In continuation of what I wrote above – As Israel was founded to be a safe haven for all Jews and the reconstructed Jewish nation and homeland (after about two millennia of occupation).
But in allowing non-citizens Jews to become citizens, it does not discriminate between Jewish citizens and non-Jewish citizens.
On Land:
http://www.wrmea.com/backissues/0198/9801088.html
And doesn't your last sentence confirm the discrimination - you need to be Jewish to be allowed to acquire Israeli citizenship.
Actually, you could marry some one has a citizenship or be born to someone who has a citizenship (one parent will suffice); Anyway, it does not discriminate between Jewish CITIZENS and not-Jewish CITIZENS.