Why I'm becoming more pro-choice

Originally posted by FMF
🙄

Classic incoherency.

how so?

Originally posted by generalissimo
What methods of prevention are you proposing? contraception?

Preventing abortions? Counselling. Family support. Workplace support. Friends, colleagues, spiritual advisers etc. etc. lending non-judgemental support. Same crowd giving space when needed. Good medical support and advice. And so on. I think anyone contemplating terminating a pregnancy should be 'confronted', counselled, cajoled, by those who are close to her, and then she should be supported in whatever decision she makes.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Of course the major flaw in this particular argument is that killing a human is not always murder. Murder is unlawfully killing a human under some circumstances. "Abortion is murder" is like saying "borrowing a spoon is theft".

Which rights do you feel supersede the right to life?

Because if you admit the notion that a fetus is a living human (at a given stage) then questions as these need to be posed. This for me is the rationale to lawfully allow early abortions and ban very late ones.

Originally posted by FMF
Preventing abortions? Counselling. Family support. Workplace support. Friends, colleagues, spiritual advisers etc. etc. lending non-judgemental support. Same crowd giving space when needed. Good medical support and advice. And so on. I think anyone contemplating terminating a pregnancy should be 'confronted', counselled, cajoled, by those who are close to her, and then she should be supported in whatever decision she makes.

sounds good, but at the end you'll still have unnecessary abortions, don't you think these should be prevented by law?

Originally posted by Palynka
Which rights do you feel supersede the right to life?

Because if you admit the notion that a fetus is a living human (at a given stage) then questions as these need to be posed. This for me is the rationale to lawfully allow early abortions and ban very late ones.

I don't think there is such a thing as a "right to life".

I value human rights greatly, but the degree of consciousness determines to a large extent the value of life.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
I don't think there is such a thing as a "right to life".

I value human rights greatly, but the degree of consciousness determines to a large extent the value of life.

Hahaha, you "value human rights greatly" but you don't think there's such a thing as a "right to life"?

What are these "human rights" that you value? The ones you will now make up? Because, if not, I suggest you look at article 3 of the UDHR.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
I don't think there is such a thing as a "right to life".

wow

Originally posted by whodey
The issue at hand is justice. Justice for the unborn as well as those starving to death. I am just as outraged about those starving as I am those being terminated before they are born, however, that is not the topic at hand, is it?

The topic at hand always revolves around the sanctity of life. Because we the living are ourselves all the result of that same 'magical' moment when life sparks into being, it always gnaws away at the inside that we could prevent this gift from being someone else's possession.

Emotionally I'm pretty squeamish about anything much past the blastocyst being aborted. By the time of the first missed period the embryo/foetus is about 2 weeks old. When it gets beyond 22-28 days past fertilization, I already start having problems with the notion of termination. Why? I cant think of a rational reason why pictures at one stage of development should make me feel less willing to contemplate something than at another time, simply that it does.

All I can say is that we live in a modern world where we have medical intervention at every stage. If we were to blindly follow 'God's will' in every way, we would also let an awful amount of people die from a myriad of diseases that we now routinely cure.

Originally posted by Palynka
Hahaha, you "value human rights greatly" but you don't think there's such a thing as a "right to life"?

What are these "human rights" that you value? The ones you will now make up? Because, if not, I suggest you look at article 3 of the UDHR.

There is no point in having a "right to life" and then making up an extensive list of exceptions. I'd rather abandon the whole idea in the first place, and look to optimize the quality of life of humans (which incidentally often involves not dying).

Does someone on a shooting spree in a mall with a semi-automatic gun have a "right to life" or can the police shoot him if that would be required to stop him?

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
There is no point in having a "right to life" and then making up an extensive list of exceptions. I'd rather abandon the whole idea in the first place, and look to optimize the quality of life of humans (which incidentally often involves not dying).

Does someone on a shooting spree in a mall with a semi-automatic gun have a "right to life" or can the police shoot him if that would be required to stop him?

An "extensive list of exceptions"? What is this "extensive list of exceptions"?

The police can shoot him because he's infringing on other people's right to life. It's actually quite simple.

But, please, enlighten me on what does it mean for you to say you "value human rights" when you don't recognize the UDHR? Am I supposed to guess what are these putative human rights?

Originally posted by Sleepyguy
wow

it isn't the most shocking thing I've heard him say.

he did state some equally disturbing things in the past.

Originally posted by Palynka
An "extensive list of exceptions"? What is this "extensive list of exceptions"?

The police can shoot him because he's infringing on other people's right to life. It's actually quite simple.

But, please, enlighten me on what does it mean for you to say you "value human rights" when you don't recognize the UDHR? Am I supposed to guess what are these putative human rights?

Yes, and there are many ways in which someone can "infringe" on someone else's right to life, abortion being one of them.

In most cases, making sure people stay alive will be the best thing to do. But not under all circumstances, and not as a rule.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
Yes, and there are many ways in which someone can "infringe" on someone else's right to life, abortion being one of them.

In most cases, making sure people stay alive will be the best thing to do. But not under all circumstances, and not as a rule.

I had two questions, you answered none.

Originally posted by Palynka
I had two questions, you answered none.

The list of exceptions is any case where you perceive the "right to life" to be infringed upon.

As for human rights, I would not claim that "human rights" is synonymous with the UDHR per se. I don't feel like discussing this in an abortion topic.

Originally posted by KazetNagorra
I don't think there is such a thing as a "right to life".

I value human rights greatly, but the degree of consciousness determines to a large extent the value of life.

"
I don't think there is such a thing as a "right to life"

Would you say the same if i had a mosin nagant pointed at the back of your head ?

GRANNY.