21 Jan 04
Originally posted by peterhYes and no. Technically you may be correct that it is not the same argument, but when you brought out a situation with a terrible history (Beethoven's mother) that had a very positive outcome (great music), I guess I was hearing you say "not all bad things have a bad outcome." I believe you are correct in that if that is what you are saying. I was simply saying that abortion is not a good thing, but that there are times when it may be a chosen event with consequences both good and bad.
im sorry...but this is not the 'same argument in the other direction'.as far as i am aware, Hitlers mother was in good health and as Adolf was an only child there was no history of child defects.So, of course i wouldnt have recommended Mrs Hitler to have an abortion.However, the argument for Beethovens mother is totally different.I am not talking about hindsight,but the decision to be made at the time.
21 Jan 04
Originally posted by OmnislashI'm not saying people shouldn't express emotions, and my plea for less emotive terms (not the same as less emotion) was a general one, not just to Omnislash's post.
You must forgive me. I speak only out of experience, which is naturally irrelevant in a logical discussion. I must be quite the fool for expressing emotion and delving into terms of morality on an issue whose debate is about individual emotions and opinions of morality.
My imaginary friend has explained to me that apparently the consensus is that any n ...[text shortened]... m.
Best Regards (in the most non-"imposing" way possible)
Omnislash
Pro-life people have a valid opinion, which I happen to disagree with.
Nobody's saying abortion should be compulsory. If its against yur beliefs, then don't have an abortion, but respect other people's right to hold a different view and their right to act accordingly.
21 Jan 04
Originally posted by RedmikeI would like you to answer the point directly please from my earlier post.
This is all getting a bit over-emotianal, as this subject tends to.
Nobody killed anyone. Abortion isn't murder.
You're only ever going to get a rational debate on this subject if such emotive terms are avoided.
The problem is that people who do what their imaginary friend tells them, rather than think for themselves, can only see the issue in these ter ...[text shortened]... t's what the right to choose means.
Every child a wanted child, every mother a willing mother.
Inconvenience - is it right to allow abortion because the baby will be inconvenient to the mother? I don't believe that women in this situation really appreciate what they are doing. Do they understand (or are they even told) what the foetus looks like at 16 weeks? It is not just a 'ball of cells'. Are they told of the long term pychological effects and guilt that many women suffer in later life. If it is so inconvenient then why not give the baby up for adoption? This 'too hard'? The so called 'easier' way out may turn out to be the worst option of all (particularly for the foetus). I'm not pretending that women do this lightly but I do think that the facts and options should be spelled out more thoroughly to them.
It isn't possible to discuss this topic in an unemotional and dispassionate way. Whatever you say we are talking about the loss of a human life here. The viability argument is bogus. Babies are now being born around the 24 week mark and surviving. Of course they wouldn't survive without help, but then neither would a full term baby. A 'potential life' is still a life.
My point about long term pychological damage to the mother (and father) is nothing to do with morality. It's just a fact. Look it up on the web. I can't believe that anyone having an abortion will not be deeply affected in the long run.
21 Jan 04
Originally posted by OmnislashThank you for bravely sharing this with us. Only the most hard hearted would fail to be moved by your heartfelt regret and not feel forgiving towards you. Of course the hardest thing in life is to forgive ourself. But you must try to do this for your own wellbeing and the rest of your family. It may help you to find a support group of people who have had similar experiences - maybe your doctor could point you in the right direction. Hope you don't feel I'm being presumptious in making this post, but I just wanted to offer you my support.
I would like to share something a bit personal with you all. Four years ago my girlfriend (present day wife), became pregnant. I was the whole of 17 and she 18 and fair to say we were pretty damn scared about it. Our families weren't supportive, and in the end we decided to go with her mothers advice and have an abortion. To be sure, it made sense. We wer ...[text shortened]... y own child. I know. Every day I pray for salvation, and a part of me hopes I burn in hell.
22 Jan 04
Originally posted by fjordBy and large you're right, since abortion/having kids generally affects women a lot more than it does men, but I don't think men (such as myself) should be completely excluded from the discussion - firstly because fathers are legally obliged to help pay for the upkeep of the child, at the very least; and secondly because if they know about the child they are likely to have significant emotional involvement in the issue. Things become complicated if the mother wants the abortion but the father doesn't or vice versa.
Thanks A7
In that case I would advice you, as a man, not listen to much to us; talk to women who have gone through an experience of abortion or rejecting an abortion under difficult circumstances and try to feel what you yourself would do in such circumstances.
Fjord
22 Jan 04
1 edit
Originally posted by A7Hello A7, you asked for web-sites that could tell you more about the subject you are interested in. Here they are:
Hi, i'm A7. the one who started this thread. i would just like to say how over overwhelmed i am by the responce.
If anyone has any web-sites they could refer me to that would be very helpful.
Thanks😀
http://standupgirl.com/help/index.html
http://www.abortion--alternatives.org/overture.htm
22 Jan 04
Originally posted by ianpickeringRe the abortions for inconvenience question. Firstly, I don't know how often this happens in practise. In the UK, a woman needs the approval of 2 doctors and a valid medical reason. However, at the end of the day, if a woman wishes to do something to her body, then that's her right. The state can set legal limits on that, and that's fair enough, but I'd support the right of any woman to do whatever they saw fit with their bodies. I agree that it should be an informed decision, that they should know at what stage the foetus is, and about the prospects of psychologicl problems in later life.
I would like you to answer the point directly please from my earlier post.
Inconvenience - is it right to allow abortion because the baby will be inconvenient to the mother? I don't believe that women in this situation really appreciate what they are doing. Do they understand (or are they even told) what the foetus looks like at 16 weeks? It is not ...[text shortened]... eb. I can't believe that anyone having an abortion will not be deeply affected in the long run.
However, the pro-life movement has to take a large part of the blame for that guilt - in countries where abortion is more widely accepted, then there are fewer such problems.
I guess we just fundamentally disagree that this is about the loss of a human life. Do you think the morning after pill is murder? Do you think contraception is murder? Isn't a sperm cell a potential life?
Yes, having an abortion may deeply affect a woman. So might having a child.
22 Jan 04
1 edit
Originally posted by RedmikeYou write: "if a woman wishes to do something to her body, then that's her right."
....... However, at the end of the day, if a woman wishes to do something to her body, then that's her right ........
Performing abortion is NOT doing something to HER body. It is doing something to SOMEONE ELSES body.
22 Jan 04
Originally posted by AcolyteYou are right. Men should participate in the decision making. In a healthy relationship such a difficult decision will ne shared by woman and man involved. The sad thing is, that the need for an abortion arises often from a bad or non-relationship with the seed producer. If every man could feel with the intensity of Omnislash I would agree that men and women have equal rights in such decisions. But it is obvious that women are more intimate and more united with the new developing life, than men. The body of the mother and the fetus are a unity. It is very close breathing.
By and large you're right, since abortion/having kids generally affects women a lot more than it does men, but I don't think men (such as myself) should be completely excluded from the discussion - firstly because fathers are legally obliged to help pay for the upkeep of the child, at the very least; and secondly because if they know about the child they a ...[text shortened]... hings become complicated if the mother wants the abortion but the father doesn't or vice versa.
Fjord.
22 Jan 04
Originally posted by fjord
You are right. Men should participate in the decision making. In a healthy relationship such a difficult decision will ne shared by woman and man involved. The sad thing is, that the need for an abortion arises often from a bad or non-relationship with the seed producer. If every man could feel with the intensity of Omnislash I would agree that men and women h ...[text shortened]... n men. The body of the mother and the fetus are a unity. It is very close breathing.
Fjord.
You write: " The sad thing is, that the need for an abortion arises often from a bad or non-relationship with the seed producer."
This is indeed the case. The relations people have. The way they look upon sexual relationships is of great importance. The connection between the sex act and the starting of a new human life has been eliminated in our way of thinking. People want to have their pleasure. They do not want to be confronted with the eventual serious consequenses of their behaviour. Their responsabilities. The abortion problem is closely connected with the consumer society in which we live and the consumer mentality generated by that same society. People use eachother in consumer relationships. In such shallow and loveless relationships a child is (of course) not welcome. The doctor has to help out in this "emergency".
I'm often surprised in how much the political left is inclined to go along with this kind of consumer thinking in human relations. They even present this kind of behaviour as a "right". The political left is less and less sceptical towards modern ways of thinking produced by a consumer orientated/capitalist society. In fact they have adopted the capitalist rule: "anything goes as long as it doesn't effect me in my personal interests" . They themselves have embraced this way of thinking and present this as "liberal" and wrap it up in a beautiful shiny piece of paper produced by what they prefer to call their "logical" way of reasoning.
But I'm not buying.