Originally posted by ivanhoeYou are clear and to the point, and I think I understand where you are coming from. However, there are situations that require us to be flexible. For example, in a perfect world where babies are always healthy and wanted, abortion seems callous and cruel. But what about the plight of a mother who is carrying an anacephalic baby ( a baby with only a brainstem) who has absolutely no chance of survival say only hours after birth. Is it appropiate to ask a mother to carry a child like this to full-term delivery? Nature does not always play by our rules.
The woman has a right to choose. Yes, but that choice lies before the conception. After the conception the result of her choice is alive and well. Nobody has the right to kill an innocent life. No woman, no man, no doctor. Nobody has the right to deny someone the right to live.
How can there be peace in a society when that society allows woman to kill their own children. If there is no peace in the womb, then there cannot be peace in the head.
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Originally posted by missleadI also mentioned the woman's partner/man/husband. Of course he has to be supportive as well. A lot of women decide to get rid of their child because they themselves feels abandoned in one way or the other by their partners and family.
Agreed.what rights for the father?Hope does it come down to a woman's decision before conception? you say so.
That's why I advocate more support, both material and psychological, by society for pregnant women in order to prevent a situation in which women find themselves forced to make that awfull and impossible decision to kill their own child.
A civilised society helps its women in trouble.
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Originally posted by ivanhoeThis is selective.>A lot of women.Don't be selective about this.Babies lives are in your hands.
I also mentioned the woman's partner/man/husband. Of course he has to be supportive as well. A lot of woman decide to get rid of their child because she herself feels abandoned in one way or the other by their partners and family.
That's why I advocate more support, both material and psychological, by society for pregnant women in order to prevent a ...[text shortened]... ssible decision to kill their own child.
A civilised society helps its women in trouble.
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Originally posted by ivanhoeBut what if he is not?
I also mentioned the woman's partner/man/husband. Of course he has to be supportive as well. A lot of woman decide to get rid of their child because she herself feels abandoned in one way or the other by their partners and family.
That's why I advocate more support, both material and psychological, by society for pregnant women in order to prevent a ...[text shortened]... ssible decision to kill their own child.
A civilised society helps its women in trouble.
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Originally posted by kirksey957First of all: we are talking about abortion in general. What I said applies to that situation.
You are clear and to the point, and I think I understand where you are coming from. However, there are situations that require us to be flexible. For example, in a perfect world where babies are always healthy and wanted, abortion seem ...[text shortened]... to full-term delivery? Nature does not always play by our rules.
Now you are talking about a certain very sad situation. It depends on what we all tell ourselves is the good thing to do. If I were that woman I probably would decide to accept this situation as it is, because that is the best thing to do no matter how hard it is and I would decide to carry that baby to full-term delivery. I know that this seems senseless and useless and cruel to people who are not willing or simply cannot give a meaning to this situation, because we are tought that such a situation is a senceless one. But is it really ? I believe that we are not here on earth to do everything in a way that we instantly understand. Sometimes I believe the best thing to do is what I believe God says is the most sensible thing to do. Afterwards, maybe years later you will be able to understand and see the reason why. But maybe you will not see the reason and you have to live with that. However you will have the certainty that you have done the right thing and that God supports you.
I now recall a statement made by president Kennedy in one of his speeches. He said: "We sometimes do not do things because they are easy, but because they are hard".
It takes faith, courage and surrendering to God to go this way.
I believe this "hard" way to be the "easy" way, because I will be certain that God will be on my side. He will support me to face the situation and accept it to the full. The question is : Will the doctors, the husband, family and friends support the woman in question and will they be willing to accompany her on her difficult journey ?
Accepting it to the full is what I think it is all about in life.
This does not mean however that we cannot ease the suffering. On the contrary, we have an obligation to do just that.
I am aware of the fact that people are not able or willing to accept things as I have described. In my view it is almost impossible for people who do not believe in God to go this (His) way. Even for believers it can be too hard or even impossible. In this case we must turn to God and trust in Him to be a forgiving and merciful God.
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Originally posted by misslead
But what if he is not?
If the partner is not supportive, family, friends and society should even be more supportive. I believe that abortion is in the first place a problem of a society that lacks love and care for everybody living in it. The less loving and caring a society, the more indifferent and violent, the more abortions will be performed. Not because the women that make such a decision are less loving or indifferent, but they do not receive enough support, love and care from their social surroundings in a difficult situation.
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Originally posted by kirksey957Cannot "nature" be construed as God-willed? If so, who are we to decide if a anacephalic baby somehow cannot contribute to the spiritual growth of the mother by living only a few hours after birth as deemed neccesary by God...what I'm saying is that maybe it's God's will to allow this type of baby to be born...to teach someone a lesson on life and how precious it is. I see your logic, Kirk, and do not entirely disagree with you but "God works in mysterious ways", no?
You are clear and to the point, and I think I understand where you are coming from. However, there are situations that require us to be flexible. For example, in a perfect world where babies are always healthy and wanted, abortion seems callous and cruel. But what about the plight of a mother who is carrying an anacephalic baby ( a baby with only a bra ...[text shortened]... her to carry a child like this to full-term delivery? Nature does not always play by our rules.
OK, all you athiests...let me have it on the chin....😀
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The law should have nothing to do with religious considerations. If a pregnancy is unwanted it should be allowed to be terminated, it is no worse than contreception, or a morning after pill.
It is a question for the individuals involved not the state.
Sooner or later population control is going to become a real issue anyway.
Andrew
I would like to share something a bit personal with you all. Four years ago my girlfriend (present day wife), became pregnant. I was the whole of 17 and she 18 and fair to say we were pretty damn scared about it. Our families weren't supportive, and in the end we decided to go with her mothers advice and have an abortion. To be sure, it made sense. We were unwed, very young, and had only just begun to start our lives. We were in no way prepared to be parents.
Now, there are a lot of things in my life that I've done that I could say I'm "not too proud of" or "would have done differently", but of all the decisions I have ever made, I regret that one the most. I simply cannot convey to you the depth of regret that I have for this. For as much as I am concerned, I murdered my son/daughter.
Now I have one child, my son, the greatest thing in my life. Nothing has ever filled my life with such light as that little boy. Now more than ever, since I now know exactly what it is I took away from this world, if I am ever to talk about regrets I must say that I really have only one. On the day we had the abortion I was strong for my wife. It has been over four years now, and still it is often that when I find myself alone I weep.
In very unique instances such as what brother Kirk mentioned, I think abortion may be a humane option. All the talk about "a womans right to choose" though.....people who say such things don't know what the hell they are talking about. I killed my own child. I know. Every day I pray for salvation, and a part of me hopes I burn in hell.
This is all getting a bit over-emotianal, as this subject tends to.
Nobody killed anyone. Abortion isn't murder.
You're only ever going to get a rational debate on this subject if such emotive terms are avoided.
The problem is that people who do what their imaginary friend tells them, rather than think for themselves, can only see the issue in these terms.
And, to make matters worse, they insist on imposing their views on the rest of us.
If you have a moral/religious problem with abortion, then don't have one.
The rest of us, if we're ever in the unfortunate position of having to make such a decision, should make that decision based on our own morality, our own views and the law of the place we live in.
That's what the right to choose means.
Every child a wanted child, every mother a willing mother.
Originally posted by RedmikeYou must forgive me. I speak only out of experience, which is naturally irrelevant in a logical discussion. I must be quite the fool for expressing emotion and delving into terms of morality on an issue whose debate is about individual emotions and opinions of morality.
This is all getting a bit over-emotianal, as this subject tends to.
Nobody killed anyone. Abortion isn't murder.
You're only ever going to get a rational debate on this subject if such emotive terms are avoided.
The problem is that people who do what their imaginary friend tells them, rather than think for themselves, can only see the issue in these ter ...[text shortened]... t's what the right to choose means.
Every child a wanted child, every mother a willing mother.
My imaginary friend has explained to me that apparently the consensus is that any non-choice view is silly and should not be expressed. My personal experience and pain is of no consequence and I should just keep my mouth shut and permit others to endure such an experience without forwarning them that they may have a similarly harsh experience.
Again, my most heartfelt apologies for opening up and sharing my personal experience. I should not have the right to relay an emotioinal first hand testimony about when I exercised my right to choose. I am a silly emotional man, and I suppose I shall have to go home soon and apologize to my living child for loving him.
Best Regards (in the most non-"imposing" way possible)
Omnislash
Originally posted by ivanhoeYou say that "sometimes I believe the best thing to do is what I believe God says is the most sensible thing to do." This I struggle with. First of all, I'm not willing to give over my opinion, will, etc, to what someone believes God would say or do. Secondly, it is not always clear what God thinks the most "sensible thing" to do is. Sometimes my God is strangely silent on many a difficult issue, but always present to accept and love.
First of all: we are talking about abortion in general. What I said applies to that situation.
Now you are talking about a certain very sad situation. It depends on what we all tell ourselves is the good thing to do. If I were that woman I probably would decide to accept this situation as it is, because that is the best thing to do no matter how hard it ...[text shortened]... sible. In this case we must turn to God and trust in Him to be a forgiving and merciful God.
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