Originally posted by stokerUm....I'm lost. Are you 90% against religion or are you saying that you base your opinion on this on 90% religion.
Im totaly against abortion 90% on religon. im male if its a question. when does life start at the moment of conseption , taking a life is taken when ever after that . with all the questions surronding pepole trying to have children yet we take a life here try to add a life there.
Originally posted by OmnislashOmnislash, God still loves you, mate...what you did is not unpardonable if you believe in Jesus...don't listen to these unemotional morons...they don't know what you went through...just love your wife and son doubly and it will be all right in the end...cheers 🙂
You must forgive me. I speak only out of experience, which is naturally irrelevant in a logical discussion. I must be quite the fool for expressing emotion and delving into terms of morality on an issue whose debate is about individual emotions and opinions of morality.
My imaginary friend has explained to me that apparently the consensus is that any n ...[text shortened]... m.
Best Regards (in the most non-"imposing" way possible)
Omnislash
Originally posted by peterhOne could easily make the same argument in the other direction. "If you knew a woman who was pregnant with Hitler, would you....?" If you said yes, then you just saved 6 million Jews.
If you knew a woman who was pregnant who had 8 kids already,3 who were deaf,2 who were blind,1 mentally retarted,and she had Syphiles,would you recommend an abortion?
if you said yes--then you just killed Beethoven.
I think what everyone agrees on is that abortion is not an ideal outcome for anyone except in the most extreme situations. I just don't see how a "one size fits all" outlook is the best way to go with this issue. IN other words, no abortion, ever, for any reason whatsoever.
Originally posted by OmnislashYou have every right to express your views and your emotions about the situation you have experienced. This whole issue is about what is best for people. What decison will be best for all parties involved. I think your decision to share these emotions and experiences with us is a very courageous one. I would like people who had the same experience to come forward more often during these discussions to let other people know that making such a decision has a profound influence on someones life and well-being. Not so long ago I heard a (female) Dutch abortion doctor state that having an abortion is something like cutting your nails. Such remarks show a sad and remarkable ignorance on the part of some "pro choice" people dealing with this issue.
You must forgive me. I speak only out of experience, which is naturally irrelevant in a logical discussion. I must be quite the fool for expressing emotion and delving into terms of morality on an issue whose debate is about individual em ...[text shortened]... st non-"imposing" way possible)
Omnislash
At the time of the events you were in fact not able to make a mature and independent decision. You were very young and you were not able to see the consequenses. You did what you could. You supported your girlfriend in a very difficult situation and that is a very mature, admirable and caring thing to do.
Omnilash, I know for sure that since you've expressed deep remorse about your decision God has allready forgiven you. You just don't know that yet. It is about time that somebody told you. 🙂
Originally posted by kirksey957You, my friend, give Christians a good name. Too bad more of them don't realize that when you live 'faith-based' it doesn't require you to hand over your brain.
One could easily make the same argument in the other direction. "If you knew a woman who was pregnant with Hitler, would you....?" If you said yes, then you just saved 6 million Jews.
I think what everyone agrees on is that abortion is not an ideal outcome for anyone except in the most extreme situations. I just don't see how a "one size fits a ...[text shortened]... best way to go with this issue. IN other words, no abortion, ever, for any reason whatsoever.
Originally posted by bbarrWow, I agree! While I was busy online trying to figure out if Charles Manson or Hitler had birth defects Kirksy was laying it down "fo'real".
You, my friend, give Christians a good name. Too bad more of them don't realize that when you live 'faith-based' it doesn't require you to hand over your brain.
Good eye, Bbarr!
P-
Here are some arguments in favour of abortion and counter-arguments to balance those against abortion. I'm not saying I agree with them all, just trying to give the other side.
What do we mean by life, as in to take life? Suppose a woman goes to have liposuction. The process kills lots of living fat cells - but we don't call it murder. 'But they're just fat cells, they have no potential to become people,' you might say.
OK, how about this: women generally excrete eggs at a rate of about one a month. These DO have the potential to form people when combined with sperm. Does this mean that women should always try to get pregnant, or store all their eggs, to minimise the death of eggs?
Clearly one has to draw the line somewhere; even several months into pregnancy, the probability of miscarriage is non-zero, so it is still not a certainty that a baby would be born at the end. But why draw the line at conception? At this stage the embryo really is just a cell/ball of cells, and in fact a very high proportion of these miscarry (they're invisibly small so the woman would probably never know). The dividing line generally used is the point at which the foetus becomes viable, ie it would have a chance of surviving outside the womb. This is after about 24 weeks, and most countries do not allow abortion after this time except for exceptional cases (eg the birth would endanger the mother, or the baby wouldn't survive for more than a few days anyway). As for having the abortion sooner rather than later, this is all well and good, but no-one knows about the pregnancy until at least a few weeks after conception.
God - I'm not religious myself, so I can't really answer this one. If God gives a firm opinion on the matter, then by all means follow his instructions. If he doesn't, then you have to be careful what you infer from the Bible. Shouting 'thou shalt not kill' at pro-choicers isn't going to get you anywhere, because they don't see abortion as killing. After all, artifical terminations weren't a sensible prospect in Biblical times, not if you wanted the mother to live.
A utilitarian argument: Parents have limited resources, as does society; for this reason, in societies where children are a net economic burden (eg in Europe and North America) parents will only be able to afford so many, and after this point any more children they have will probably be to the detriment of the others. I'm talking about the time parents have to interact with their children, as well as the money they need to spend on them. So you have to weigh up the welfare of the new child versus that of the others and their parents. This is especially the case if a child would be born with a disability that would mean it took a lot more resources to raise than the other children.
Also, many parents will aim to have a certain (or approximate) number of children, which means if one is never born, through miscarriage, stillbirth or abortion, they'll have another one (on average). This doesn't affect whether the act is wrong on principle, but it makes the 'what if the aborted baby would have found a cure for cancer' argument a bit pointless.
For a specific example, consider this: a girl gets pregnant while at school from someone she doesn't know very well. She decides to have the baby, but her education suffers as a result of time lost looking after it, resulting in the mother and child being poorer than they would otherwise. Alternatively, she doesn't have the baby, but has another ten years down the line when she's in a stable relationship/marriage. The world has lost one person and gained another, but this baby will have, on average, much better opportunities in life and better emotional development for being brought up by a mother and a father who have the necessary qualifications to get good jobs, rather than a teenage girl who drops out of school.
Think of the (potential) parents - if they have a child, they are expected to look after it, which involves a huge amount of effort, both physical and emotional. You could say that's their fault for not using contraception, but firstly no contraception except abstinence is infallible, secondly there are cases where it isn't even voluntary, particularly rape, thirdly everyone makes mistakes, especially when drunk. Is it fair for them to be saddled with this responsibility if they aren't ready for it? (eg teenagers)
'I have a disabled child and I love him/her more than anything else in the world' - I'm not disputing that, but the same could be said by any parent about any one of their children. If children are so great, why not have more? Because there's a limit to how many you can support; so if you hadn't had the disabled child, you could have had another child later that you wouldn't have been able to support otherwise.
Originally posted by AcolyteJust tell him that I said you were forgiven for that as you have confessed the wicked ways of your past. He kind of gets into that Old Testament prophet mode sometimes. But don't tell him I said that. 🙂
Don't bother - I was chucked out of the Freethinkers for not paying attention to my clan games. rwingett just wants to win glory for himself. 😉
Originally posted by A7Thanks A7
woman
In that case I would advice you, as a man, not listen to much to us; talk to women who have gone through an experience of abortion or rejecting an abortion under difficult circumstances and try to feel what you yourself would do in such circumstances.
Fjord
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Originally posted by kirksey957im sorry...but this is not the 'same argument in the other direction'.as far as i am aware, Hitlers mother was in good health and as Adolf was an only child there was no history of child defects.So, of course i wouldnt have recommended Mrs Hitler to have an abortion.However, the argument for Beethovens mother is totally different.I am not talking about hindsight,but the decision to be made at the time.
One could easily make the same argument in the other direction. "If you knew a woman who was pregnant with Hitler, would you....?" If you said yes, then you just saved 6 million Jews.
I think what everyone agrees on is that abortion is not an ideal outcome for anyone except in the most extreme situations. I just don't see how a "one size fits a ...[text shortened]... best way to go with this issue. IN other words, no abortion, ever, for any reason whatsoever.