Originally posted by StarValleyWyYou are of course right that science has the capacity to occasionally get things wrong. But for the whole scientific community to change its mind - a paradigm shift as it is termed - it normally requires someone like Gallileo to come along with some very bright and very persausive ideas. I'm not sure your rants quite qualify.
"Greenhouse Effect" is a buzz word designed to bring money. That is all it is.
People who use it are therefore not to be taken seriously.
So at one time all the scientists in the world knew that gallileo was wrong. What is your point?
Rich.
Originally posted by richhoeyThe end of the world. The death of every last creature on earth. Or even a SINGLE year in which the human population decreased BECAUSE OF ENVIRONMENTAL pressure. That would do it. Hell... I'll settle for a single DAY in the world when our steadily IMPROVING ENVIRONMENT causes an interruption of growth.
You didn't answer my question. What WOULD it take for you to be convinced?
Rich.
Originally posted by richhoeyQuite right. My rants matter not a bit. But neither does the newest silly religion ... "Environmentalism". It is more wrong headed than I could be if I were trying. And that is pretty damn wrong!
You are of course right that science has the capacity to occasionally get things wrong. But for the whole scientific community to change its mind - a paradigm shift as it is termed - it normally requires someone like Gallileo to come along with some very bright and very persausive ideas. I'm not sure your rants quite qualify.
Rich.
There is a difference between paradigm shift and a fad. When we get to a point in human development when we are able to relieve the pressures on our resources ... that will be a paradigm shift. Polity, ie, the art of pressure amongst peers... is not a paradigm shift. Only politics as usual.
1 edit
Originally posted by richhoeygood points rich!
Right, so in a thread discussing the pros and cons of America I mention US environmental policy and get slammed for failing to mention that other countries produce pollution too...?! What do you want me to say - Oh no they don't?
Becau ...[text shortened]... g to sign it. I don't think that makes me anti-American.
Rich.
being pro-planet doesn't make anyone anti-american
(in fact, you were one of those who have spoken out against anti-american bigotry on the forums)
unfortunately, there are people who refuse to acknowledge that there even is an environmental problem as though historical events were pure fantasy.
pollution realities certainly gives the term 'dark ages' a new meaning these days 😀
in friendship,
prad
Originally posted by pradtfGuess what? I'm "Pro-planet". I like the major planets more than the minor planets. I don't much care for the binaries like charon-pluto. They still have a right to do their thing.
good points rich!
being pro-planet doesn't make anyone anti-american
(in fact, you were one of those who have spoken out against anti-american bigotry on this site)
unfortunately, there are people who refuse to acknowledge that there even is an environmental problem as though historical events were pure fantasy.
pollution realities certainly gives the term 'dark ages' a new meaning these days 😀
in friendship,
prad
I think you are getting your terms mixed. The planets are big things that go around the sun. "Political" bullsh** is what you are mistaking for these big old thingys.
Try to concentrate.
PS... A little protein couldn't hurt. That way your poor brain will know that the sun is a star.
In Derision and Ridicule,
Mike
Originally posted by StarValleyWyThanks for answering. There has already been an increase in fatal extreme weather events, but human populations are extremely robust and by the time the world's population is affected, it will be much, much too late to do anything about it. But we can use the much more fragile world of animals and plants as an indicator of trouble to come (and as depressing news in its own right).
The end of the world. The death of every last creature on earth. Or even a SINGLE year in which the human population decreased BECAUSE OF ENVIRONMENTAL pressure. That would do it. Hell... I'll settle for a single DAY in the world when our steadily IMPROVING ENVIRONMENT causes an interruption of growth.
The WWF estimates that 'several hundred' species of flowering plant are becoming extinct each year; others put the figure in the thousands. I don't have the numbers, but I know species of animals are also becoming extinct at an unprecedented rate. Of course, there is debate about how much of this is due to the greenhouse effect, but some of it probably is.
Rich.
Originally posted by richhoeyAgain you are wrong. Just because species go extinct doesn't mean there is pressure ON THE PRESSURING, CAUSAL species. It just means it is more robust. Species come and they go. By the millions and billions. Sometimes with startling rapidity. The earth doesn't care. This is what I meant by your "Elitist" attitude. You seem to be claiming that you speak for the "Earth"... In big capitol letters. You do not. Nor do I. It is beyond the scope, in time and durability... for humans to even understand it. So please stop pretending to speak for it. I hate that as much as Ivan The Terrible speaking for "God" all the time.
Thanks for answering. There has already been an increase in fatal extreme weather events, but human populations are extremely robust and by the time the world's population is affected, it will be much, much too late to do anything about it. But we can use the much more fragile world of animals and plants as an indicator of trouble to come (and as depressin ...[text shortened]... ate about how much of this is due to the greenhouse effect, but some of it probably is.
Rich.
As for "trouble to come"... You and I have exactly opposite views of it. I welcome it. Worse times the better. Let us suffer till it hurts. Do you think there is any way we will ever leave the tender breast of an all providing planet and get into space where we belong if we are coddled in a nest? Let the nest burn and be fouled beyond belief! That way, we will have to get out of it and populate the planets. Then the stars.
Again. Earth cares not. We all die tomorrow... it just begins to rebuild the next billion year history... this time of the insect. That is the way of the universe. We aren't as important as you try to make us out.
Originally posted by pradtfThanks Prad, I think it's really important to distinguish between being critical (sometimes highly critical) of the current politics of a country, and being anti the country and its people in general. After all, my biggest rant on this site lately was against Britain's own Tony Blair.
good points rich!
being pro-planet doesn't make anyone anti-american
(in fact, you were one of those who have spoken out against anti-american bigotry on the forums)
unfortunately, there are people who refuse to acknowledge that there even is an environmental problem as though historical events were pure fantasy.
pollution realities certainly gives the term 'dark ages' a new meaning these days 😀
in friendship,
prad
Rich.
Originally posted by StarValleyWyso mike! are you just trying to be rude or does it come naturally these days.
Guess what? I'm "Pro-planet". I like the major planets more than the minor planets. I don't much care for the binaries like charon-pluto. They still have a right to do their thing.
I think you are getting your terms mixed. The planets are big things that go around the sun. "Political" bullsh** is what you are mistaking for these big old thingy ...[text shortened]... That way your poor brain will know that the sun is a star.
In Derision and Ridicule,
Mike
i remember a time when it wasn't like this and you & i talked about physics without your attempting to belittle the people you were discussing with 😀
in friendship,
prad
Originally posted by StarValleyWyYes, you are right, the Earth will eventully recover from human activity - life will go on after humans have wiped ourselves out and taken most of the planet's species with us. But you seem to welcome that scenario and I don't.
Again you are wrong. Just because species go extinct doesn't mean there is pressure ON THE PRESSURING, CAUSAL species. It just means it is more robust. Species come and they go. By the millions and billions. Sometimes with startling rapidity. The earth doesn't care. This is what I meant by your "Elitist" attitude. You seem to be claiming that you sp ...[text shortened]... he insect. That is the way of the universe. We aren't as important as you try to make us out.
I believe we should be preserving the planet's bioversity both for its own sake and for future generations to enjoy and appreciate. I don't want our children and grandchildren to inherit a clapped out and poisoned planet, whereas see such a scenario as a good motivator for space exploration. I'm afraid we're as fundamentally apart as ever, so this is going to be my final post on the matter.
Cheers,
Rich.
Originally posted by pradtfIt comes pretty much naturally when confronting the "birth of a new religion." Otherwise not. I have a real chip against people who "pretend" to give up on their heritage, ie, "being predators". I consider that the fastest way into chaos. Sublimation. Only by remaining true to ourselves and what we are can we progress. "Greens" and "Vegans" and "Environmentalists" are dangerous, in my opinion, because of this pseudo-denial syndrome. They don't like themselves and it becomes only a matter of time until they form gangs and act on this hatred. So I show no patience with them or their strange religions.
so mike! are you just trying to be rude or does it come naturally these days.
i remember a time when it wasn't like this and you & i talked about physics without your attempting to belittle the people you were discussing with 😀
in friendship,
prad
Now I feel obligated to explain WHY I feel threatened by pseudo-denial movements. It is because of the strange ability of the human mind to rationalize. Then terrorize. It has started already with "Earth Firster's" and others. I will not be a part to it. In the coming years of war that these kooky religions will inevitably bring, I want it known out front, to my kids and their kids that I opposed them and did not appease them.
As to your "In Freindship" thing... It just sets me off. Because I know you are in pseudo-denial of what you really are. A human predator just like the rest of us. If this offends you, then you will just have to live with it. You offend every bone in my body when you ridicule and cut, not as a predator but a coward. Get out front and just be human. That is good enough. I am breaking the taboo you see. I dare to call a totally peaceful "friend" a coward and a two face. But that's just me. I ain't far removed from the cold hard den of my forefathers, and I know it.
1 edit
Originally posted by richhoeyRich,
Yes, you are right, the Earth will eventully recover from human activity - life will go on after humans have wiped ourselves out and taken most of the planet's species with us. But you seem to welcome that scenario and I don't.
I beli ...[text shortened]... s going to be my final post on the matter.
Cheers,
Rich.
My real point is that it is ALREADY too late. We have a finite resource here and NOTHING WILL STOP US FROM OVERPOPULATING. Nothing can save us except getting out of the nest. Save all you want, but there comes a day when it is kapoot! Then what do we do besides kill each other?
Originally posted by StarValleyWyhumans are not as predatory as you insist nor do they need to practise offensiveness to demonstrate their 'humanity'.
a real chip against people who "pretend" to give up on their heritage, ie, "being predators". I consider that the fastest way into chaos. Sublimation. Only by remaining true to ourselves ...
I dare to call a totally peaceful "friend" a coward and a two face. But that's just me. I ain't far removed from the cold hard den of my forefathers, and I know it.
why not count the years it's been from that 'cold hard den of my forefathers'. it's been a long, long time. there is no need to be like this.
in friendship,
prad
1 edit
Originally posted by pradtfSee! You did it again. Even knowing that it is offensive to me. If you care nothing for my feelings, why should I care about yours? Being "innocuous" doen't excuse you being rude.
humans are not as predatory as you insist nor do they need to practise offensiveness to demonstrate their 'humanity'.
why not count the years it's been from that 'cold hard den of my forefathers'. it's been a long, long time. there is no need to be like this.
in friendship,
prad
It is ok to strive to be "really really good and civilized" as long as we remember the poor souls who were slaughtered so we can pretend. But only by facing up to who and what we are can we progress. Denial is not the answer.
In my case, "The den" is only thirty-five years removed. Not that long ago you see.
Not in freindship... not in hatred... just in CONVERSATION, as should be,
Mike
Originally posted by StarValleyWytheir slaughter necessitates being 'civilized' and history provides many examples of people being that way.
It is ok to strive to be "really really good and civilized" as long as we remember the poor souls who were slaughtered so we can pretend. But only by facing up to who and what we are can we progress. Denial is not the answer.
being 'civilized' is not denial - in fact, it is 'progress' and shows that many people are indeed 'facing up to who and what we are' - but perhaps, more importantly 'what we can be'.
35 years is still a long time, but 35000 years is longer.
in friendship,
prad