04 Feb 08
Yesterday, whilst on a drunken binge in Brabant, I was told that the US had a vote about which language they should adopt. English beat Dutch by one vote.
Now, I'm not saying this is true; I can't be bothered checking it up, but say the US had adopted Dutch as their language, would English still be the number one lingo it is today?
04 Feb 08
1 edit
Originally posted by MissOleumThat is my favourite poem 🙂 I have always liked Yeats.
Had I the heavens' embroidered cloths,
Enwrought with golden and silver light,
The blue and the dim and the dark cloths
Of night and light and the half-light,
I would spread the cloths under your feet:
But I, being poor, have only my dreams;
I have spread my dreams under your feet;
Tread softly because you tread on my dreams.
William Butler Yeats
04 Feb 08
Originally posted by Pawn QweenC. Marlowe
That is my favourite poem 🙂
V. The Passionate Shepherd to His Love
COME live with me and be my Love,
And we will all the pleasures prove
That hills and valleys, dale and field,
And all the craggy mountains yield.
There will we sit upon the rocks 5
And see the shepherds feed their flocks,
By shallow rivers, to whose falls
Melodious birds sing madrigals.
There will I make thee beds of roses
And a thousand fragrant posies, 10
A cap of flowers, and a kirtle
Embroider'd all with leaves of myrtle.
A gown made of the finest wool
Which from our pretty lambs we pull,
Fair linèd slippers for the cold, 15
With buckles of the purest gold.
A belt of straw and ivy buds
With coral clasps and amber studs:
And if these pleasures may thee move,
Come live with me and be my Love. 20
Thy silver dishes for thy meat
As precious as the gods do eat,
Shall on an ivory table be
Prepared each day for thee and me.
The shepherd swains shall dance and sing 25
For thy delight each May-morning:
If these delights thy mind may move,
Then live with me and be my Love.
😉
04 Feb 08
Originally posted by demonseedAgreed, and when I read this, in my mind it's an Irish voice 🙂
The English may have taught us [the Irish] how to speak English but we taught them how to write it.
The Stolen Child - WBYeats
WHERE dips the rocky highland
Of Sleuth Wood in the lake,
There lies a leafy island
Where flapping herons wake
The drowsy water rats;
There we've hid our faery vats,
Full of berrys
And of reddest stolen cherries.
Come away, O human child!
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand.
Where the wave of moonlight glosses
The dim gray sands with light,
Far off by furthest Rosses
We foot it all the night,
Weaving olden dances
Mingling hands and mingling glances
Till the moon has taken flight;
To and fro we leap
And chase the frothy bubbles,
While the world is full of troubles
And anxious in its sleep.
Come away, O human child!
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand.
Where the wandering water gushes
From the hills above Glen-Car,
In pools among the rushes
That scare could bathe a star,
We seek for slumbering trout
And whispering in their ears
Give them unquiet dreams;
Leaning softly out
From ferns that drop their tears
Over the young streams.
Come away, O human child!
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than you can understand.
Away with us he's going,
The solemn-eyed:
He'll hear no more the lowing
Of the calves on the warm hillside
Or the kettle on the hob
Sing peace into his breast,
Or see the brown mice bob
Round and round the oatmeal chest.
For he comes, the human child,
To the waters and the wild
With a faery, hand in hand,
For the world's more full of weeping than he can understand.
The Waterboys version -
04 Feb 08
Originally posted by Pawn QweenThat's a favorite of mine. 🙂
Agreed, and when I read this, in my mind it's an Irish voice 🙂
The Stolen Child - WBYeats
WHERE dips the rocky highland
Of Sleuth Wood in the lake,
There lies a leafy island
Where flapping herons wake
The drowsy water rats;
There we've hid our faery vats,
Full of berrys
And of reddest stolen cherries.
Come away, O human child!
To the wate ...[text shortened]... e can understand.
The Waterboys version -
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jg-oJKYIinQ
04 Feb 08
Originally posted by StarrmanIt is great, and specially for natives who, indeed, should aim for.
Why is mastering English Anglocentric babble? If you're a native English speaker surely mastering it is something you should aim for. As a native Spanish speaker should do for Spanish, or a native Russian should do for Russian.
In fact why shouldn't non-native language speakers aim to learn the languages they do speak as well as possible? Is it a bad thing to be very good at the languages you speak?
And if non-natives do, even better.
The 'should' for non-natives is another thing. Nobody 'should'
learn this or that. Specially with language, who is, amongst other
things, a tool for cultural penetration.
I advocate bastardization of the language of the conqueror, because
that is the way the conquered "strike back" and claim some of the
dignity left in the defeat.
English is enough up to the level of survival in the global scene
(sorry for "global world", iron). For natives to say non-natives
"should" master the language of the natives is opressive and
centric.
Specially native English speakers, who are famous for not speaking
more than their own (since it is so widespread).
04 Feb 08
Originally posted by SeitseI can't believe you're bringing patriotism into a discussion about language.
It is great, and specially for natives who, indeed, should aim for.
And if non-natives do, even better.
The 'should' for non-natives is another thing. Nobody 'should'
learn this or that. Specially with language, who is, amongst other
things, a tool for cultural penetration.
I advocate bastardization of the language of the conqueror, because
that i ...[text shortened]... ers, who are famous for not speaking
more than their own (since it is so widespread).
05 Feb 08
Originally posted by Seitse"Should" is a word which is more than "do or be something that would be pleasing to others" - it carries overtones of one person desiring to control and compel the behaviour of others.
The 'should' for non-natives is another thing. Nobody 'should'
learn this or that. Specially with language, who is, amongst other
things, a tool for cultural penetration.
These overtones have been added. The word in its original sense indicated an option rather than a compulsion. The words "may" and "must" are more precise where compulsion and control are involved.
High standards of spoken or written English (French, Arabic, Norwegian, Gaelic) may be appreciated by readers or listeners.
Non-native speakers of any language must not be required, or even expected, to achieve any standard beyond that which they find adequate.
Native English speakers must not be required, or even expected, to lower their standards simply in order to accommodate any group which has not desired to achieve that standard. It is logical for two levels of language to coexist, in fact multiple levels already do - consider legal documents, various newspapers, workplace speech, schoolyard speech and chatroom text. Why would other nationalities wish us not to use the whole of the language available to us?
For natives to say non-natives
"should" master the language of the natives is opressive and
centric.
It is equally oppressive to say that natives "should" not be permitted to develop their English skills if we so wish. We have a right to enjoy the language we live with, just as all others have a right to enjoy their native language.
I advocate bastardization of the language of the conqueror, because
that is the way the conquered "strike back" and claim some of the
dignity left in the defeat.
I recognise this is a valid idea, but sincerely hope that the writer makes this statement with "tongue in cheek". Do you feel "conquered", and if so, by whom?
05 Feb 08
'Cellar door' was a great post.
Catfoodtim, you are wrong. All language can adapt, but it must have the motivation. Icelandic has remained relatively unchanged for centuries because Iceland has been left alone. Welsh is in decline because of Imperialist Oppression. Same with Irish, which has almost disappeared. English was the right language at the right time...You're crediting a specific language with qualities that should properly be attributed to its speakers.
For flexibility in a place where you might not expect it, I offer the example of Namibian German.
05 Feb 08
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Originally posted by Bosse de NageI do wonder if the evolution of the English language, as it is happening per se, if for the enrichment of it or for its demise?
'Cellar door' was a great post.
All language can adapt, but it must have the motivation.
Is it developing with rich sentiment or for the lazy?
Surely to enrich a language one must have a mastery of it first?
I also find it interesting, and somewhat perplexing, that many non-native speakers of English use the language much more gracefully than most of us.
I know I hark on about Kahlil Gibran but he was Turkish. How did he display and develop such a sensitive and emotional use of a language which was not natural to him?
Many questions I know, and maybe for debates forum. However, we do have a prime example of that usage here on RHP.
Nordlys is Norwegian, obviously. Her use and eloquence of English puts most of us to shame. I don't know if she has an English parent, and that would make a very big difference. But who would beg to differ that her use of English is not far off way surpassing theirs?
Just a thought, that's all. 😉
05 Feb 08
Originally posted by Bosse de Nageyou're confusing mastery with orthodoxy. a cockney rhyming champion is a champion as a result of his mastery of his particular patois. QE2 speaks more orthodox English, which the cockney probably can't be said to have mastered. the audience only matters insofar as it is an audience qualified to judge. the mona lisa does not cease to be a great work of art when viewed and judged negatively by someone who knows nothing or little of art.
This concept of mastery is bogus. Who's more eloquent, a cockney rhyming champion or Queen Elizabeth? It depends on the audience. Now let's hear it for my man Ken Dodd.
05 Feb 08
Originally posted by mikelomincidentally, someone who had a great command of English, even though it was his third language, after Polish and Russian, was the man we know as Joseph Conrad, author of Heart of Darkness, Lord Jim, the Nigger of the Narcissus, and other classics.
I do wonder if the evolution of the English language, as it is happening per se, if for the enrichment of it or for its demise?
Is it developing with rich sentiment or for the lazy?
Surely to enrich a language one must have a mastery of it first?
I also find it interesting, and somewhat perplexing, that many non-native speakers of English use the la ...[text shortened]... hat her use of English is not far off way surpassing theirs?
Just a thought, that's all. 😉