One move a day (2)

I was just wondering...since white gave up two pieces it would be alright for black to exchange a queen for that f1 rook right? I was thinking of the line

10...Qg7 11.Qxf4+ Qf6?!(dubious if not completely stupid) 12.Qc4+ d5 13.Qxd5+ Be6 14.Rxf6+ Nxf6

it doesn't look real good because blacks king gets pushed about...I am not too sure about it.

black does get a little developed and he gets rid of that important rook.

EDIT3: waiting for DF, Mephisto, or RN to show me what I am missing 😞

Originally posted by tomtom232
I was just wondering...since white gave up two pieces it would be alright for black to exchange a queen for that f1 rook right? I was thinking of the line

10...Qg7 11.Qxf4+ Qf6?!(dubious if not completely stupid) 12.Qc4+ d5 13.Qxd5+ Be6 14.Rxf6+ Nxf6

it doesn't look real good because blacks king gets pushed about...I am not too sure about it.

bla ...[text shortened]... that important rook.

EDIT3: waiting for DF, Mephisto, or RN to show me what I am missing 😞

I have serious doubts about that line. However, in positions like these, every idea can have its merits. So, I put your line on the board, and came up with following comments:

10. ... Qg7 11.Qxf4+ (that is the basic assumption of course) Qf6 12.Qc4+ d5

instead of d5 a king move can be tried (Ke8 or Kg7) for instance 12. ... Ke8 13.Rxf6+ Nxf6, although 14.Nc3 d5 15.Nxd5 Nxd5 16.Qxd5 Be7 17.Bc5 looks still winning for white

13.Qxd5?

I fancy white to win with 13.Qxc7+ Nd7 14.Nc3

13. ... Be6?

Probably a king move, forcing white to take the queen (see also comment on next move), for instance 13. ... Kg6 14.Rxf6+ Nxf6 gives black more chances

14.Rxf6+

Here I would suggest white plays 14.Qxb7 instead. Black can then 'safe' his queen with 14. ... Bf6 but at a cost, e.g. 15.Qxa8 Qe5 16.Rxf5+ Qxf5 17.Qxb8 and white should win with two pawns up (Qxc2? 18.Nc3! wins easily)

14. ... Nxf6 I still feel that white has the better chances with 15.Qxb7

edit. didn't see your last post before entering. I guess I agree with your conclusion, though.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3
6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qxd4+ 10. Be3 Qf6

Originally posted by FabianFnas
[fen]rnb2bnr/pppp1k1p/5q2/8/5p2/4BQ2/PPP3PP/RN3RK1[/fen]
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3
6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qxd4+ 10. Be3 [b]Qf6[/b]

As (more or less) expected. What are our options for white:

11.Bxf4 looks like the most obvious continuation

11.Qh5+ was Morphy's continuation but doesn't look good for white after Qg6 12.Rxf4+ Nf6 13.Rxf6+ Kxf6 14.Bd4+ Kf7 15.Qd5+ Qe6 16.Qf3+ Ke8 and black keeps a large material advantage (17.Bxh8?? Qe1+ and white gets mated)

11.Qe4? then black simplifies further with exf3! 12.Rxf6? Nxf6 with large material advantage for black

11.Nc3 is an interesting suggestion by Paul Keres. It is kind of a trap because 11. ... fxe3? runs into 12.Qh5+ (winning according to Keres).
Of course, black doesn't have to take on f3.

I expect 11.Bxf4 (but would prefer 11.Nc3).

I was kind of hoping for Qg7 to see how that worked out.

I guess that I would play Bxf4, but I think Mephisto's idea of Nc3 may have some merit. Frankly, the positions may transpose.

1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3
6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qxd4+ 10. Be3 Qf6
11. Bxf4

exchanging the queens is important right? Is it important enough to give up a piece?

I am thinking of Bh6..

but better is probably Bg7...

or maybe d6...

Again, let's look at the options:

- the so-called 'book move' in this variation is 11. ... Ne7, and that is what I expect, although it is not my favorite

- 11. ... Bc5+? 12.Kh1 d6 runs into attacks like for instance 13.Qh5+ Qg6 14.Bxd6+! Ke8 15.Qe2+ Qe6 16.Qb5+ wins back a piece without conceding any further piece exchange

- 11. ... Bg7 has been played (Smirnov - Tikhonov, USSR 1954); followed 12.Nc3 Ne7 13.Nd5 and Tikhonov played and lost after Nxd5 14.Qxd5+ Qe6 15.Bd2+ Kg8 16.Rae1! Qxd5 17.Re8+ Bf8 18.Bh6 1-0
But that was not black's best defense. Instead 13. ... Qg6 or 13. ... Bf6 would make it more difficult for white (although probably winning too)

- 11. ... d5!? has surprise value and may be hard to beat. For instance 12.Qxd5+ Be6 13.Qxb7 Bc5+ 14.Kh1 Bc4!. Perhaps white should play 12.Nc3 instead

- 11. ... Nc6!? (suggested by Peter Millican, former Oxford University team captain) with the idea of playing Bc5+ and d6 as above, but without the nasty consequences.

Of these alternatives, I like Nc6 the best, although I expect Ne7.

It is clear by now that there is no definitive evaluation of the values of the double muzio, despite the 'dubious' attribute it has received over the years in theory.

The board shows 11...Ne7. So it is White's move

Originally posted by Mephisto2
I have serious doubts about that line. However, in positions like these, every idea can have its merits. So, I put your line on the board, and came up with following comments:

10. ... Qg7 11.Qxf4+ (that is the basic assumption of course) Qf6 12.Qc4+ d5

instead of d5 a king move can be tried (Ke8 or Kg7) for instance 12. ... Ke8 13.Rxf6+ Nxf6, althoug ...[text shortened]... dit. didn't see your last post before entering. I guess I agree with your conclusion, though.

Originally posted by chessber
The board shows 11...Ne7. So it is White's move

Originally posted by FabianFnas
My mistake. I gave a fen too far.
The next black move is of course 11. ... Ne7
So I give you the next move:

[fen]rnb2b1r/ppppnk1p/5q2/8/5B2/5Q2/PPP3PP/RN3RK1[/fen]
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3
6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qxd4+ 10. Be3 Qf6
11. Bxf4 [b]Ne7[/b]

12.Nc3 only logical move