Originally posted by violinpatrickOf course you are right, sorry for that. I quickly put it on the board, and I think that black would at best be fighting for a draw then. For instance 10.dxc Nf6 11.Bxf4 Qxc5+ 12.Be3 Qe5 13.Bd2! with the threat Bc3 makes it difficult for black. But there may be other lines. Anyway, I don't see the need for black to return the piece already.
Not so fast... The pawn can't take the queen.
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3
6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qf5.
Time to deviate from the destruction I faced as black in Game 2277047 so let us resist the greed of 9. QXd4+ and stick to the more solid 9. Qf5 which at least prevents white gaining another tempo.
Originally posted by Dragon FireOuch that's a nasty game. I looked briefly at Qxd5+, Bd3, Qxb2 but thats just horrible for black who has no defenses.
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3
6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 [b]Qf5.
Time to deviate from the destruction I faced as black in Game 2277047 so let us resist the greed of 9. QXd4+ and stick to the more solid 9. Qf5 which at least prevents white gaining another tempo.[/b]
9. ... Qf5 10.Qb3+ (I would give a question mark here) then simply Qe6 and if
11.Bxf4 then first QxQ and white is dead with 2 pieces behind for a few pawns
or
11.Rxf4+ then first Nf6. If white then avoids queen exchange for instance with 12.Qc3 then d5 releases black's position (the pawn on c7 is not important, black would play Nbd7 and threaten Bd6)
Originally posted by Mephisto2Ok, seems I was wrong.
9. ... Qf5 10.Qb3+ (I would give a question mark here) then simply Qe6 and if
11.Bxf4 then first QxQ and white is dead with 2 pieces behind for a few pawns
or
11.Rxf4+ then first Nf6. If white then avoids queen exchange for instance with 12.Qc3 then d5 releases black's position (the pawn on c7 is not important, black would play Nbd7 and threaten Bd6)
Originally posted by Mephisto2I'm curious what book or database are you getting this from?
9. ... Qf5 is the mainline.....
Both redhotpawn gamesexplorer and Crafty 19's opening book have 9...Qxd4 down at 100%. There are so many games I'm missing out on that would really benefit someone like me (Master versus amateur games like the Shirov game you posted above.)
Originally posted by bosintangIt would be nice to create this as an actual unrated game so it would be more practical to follow...
I'm curious what book or database are you getting this from?
Both redhotpawn gamesexplorer and Crafty 19's opening book have 9...Qxd4 down at 100%. There are so many games I'm missing out on that would really benefit someone like me (Master versus amateur games like the Shirov game you posted above.)
Originally posted by bosintangWell, the online Shredder database (high level games only, I think) only has one game to go this far. That one has Qf5, followed by:
I'm curious what book or database are you getting this from?
Both redhotpawn gamesexplorer and Crafty 19's opening book have 9...Qxd4 down at 100%. There are so many games I'm missing out on that would really benefit someone like me (Master versus amateur games like the Shirov game you posted above.)
10. g4 Qe6 11. d5 Bc5+ 12. Kg2 Qg6 13. Bf4 Nf6 14. Be5 d6 15. Bxf6 Bxg4 16. Qf4 Bf3+ 0-1 (exchange of Qs forced)
Originally posted by ivan2908I second that! But I think it should not be created by the players who are actually playing (I think that two players are playing behind the scenes and that they are choosing moves out of our suggestions?)
It would be nice to create this as an actual unrated game so it would be more practical to follow...
I would suggest for White;
9. Qf5 10. Qb3+ Qe6 11. Rxf4+ and Black seems in a bit of a fix. (Qxe6 dxe6 and Black is N+B up)
I prefer Qxd4, odd as it may sound, as many have played it, and as long as a good follow-up for Be3 is prepared, I believe Black can advance even after losing Pf5.
Can anyone post the FENs, it would help.
Thank you,
FD
Originally posted by bosintangI think;
The obvious move is 9..Qxd4, as has been discussed. One move I wonder if it would be playable is: Bc5!? with the idea of giving back a piece in return for keeping the f-pawn a little longer and slowing white's attack.
Any thoughts?
9. Bc5 dxc5 10. Qxc5+ Rf2 is not good for Black- they have lost a bishop in exchange for White's pretty useless d-pawn, and now the f-pawn is on its way out.
Please add to this analysis if I miss a killer move or something...
Originally posted by mtthwProbably 12. Rxf6+?! Kxf6 which provides an interesting twist and wiping off Black's development.
So what are you planning after 11...Nf6? I'm not seeing a good follow up for white.
I haven't analyzed too far ahead, but I believe that is sound.