Originally posted by bosintangI don't have my old opening books anymore (gave them away 20 years ago) but I do know that
I'm curious what book or database are you getting this from?
Both redhotpawn gamesexplorer and Crafty 19's opening book have 9...Qxd4 down at 100%. There are so many games I'm missing out on that would really benefit someone like me (Master versus amateur games like the Shirov game you posted above.)
- MCO14 (Nick de Firman) only mentions 9. ... Qf5, and not Qxd4+.
and
- that 9. ... Qxd4+ used to be played until Steinitz (yes, that long ago) recommended Qf5 instead based on tempo gain and keeping f6 available for the knight.
Originally posted by Mephisto2Well, I will bow to your better knowledge. 🙁
I don't have my old opening books anymore (gave them away 20 years ago) but I do know that
- MCO14 (Nick de Firman) only mentions 9. ... Qf5, and not Qxd4+.
and
- that 9. ... Qxd4+ used to be played until Steinitz (yes, that long ago) recommended Qf5 instead based on tempo gain and keeping f6 available for the knight.
Originally posted by Mephisto2Korchnoi in his book "The Kings Gambit - Batsford" published 1974 only mentions 9. QXd4+ (which was why I played it in my afore-mentioned lost game). He then give the moves 10. Be3 Qf3, 11. BXf4!! by which time black seems lost.
I don't have my old opening books anymore (gave them away 20 years ago) but I do know that
- MCO14 (Nick de Firman) only mentions 9. ... Qf5, and not Qxd4+.
and
- that 9. ... Qxd4+ used to be played until Steinitz (yes, that long ago) recommended Qf5 instead based on tempo gain and keeping f6 available for the knight.
I presume 9. Qf5 must have arisen as a refutation of whites line after 1973. Certainly I cannot see any merit in 9. QXd4+ any longer.
Originally posted by Dragon FireI did some research into this after reading Mephisto's response to my suggestion that we leave the main line with Qf5 that Qf5 is the main line
Korchnoi in his book "The Kings Gambit - Batsford" published 1974 [b]only mentions 9. QXd4+ (which was why I played it in my afore-mentioned lost game). He then give the moves 10. Be3 Qf3, 11. BXf4!! by which time black seems lost.
I presume 9. Qf5 must have arisen as a refutation of whites line after 1973. Certainly I cannot see any merit in 9. QXd4+ any longer.[/b]
In the chessbase database there are 139 games with Qf5. The first is from 1889, the second from 1975, and the third from 1980.
In that same database there are 159 games with Qxd4, none of them older than 1979.
I realize this doesn't answer any questions, I just thought it was interesting.
I always thought Qxd4 was the main line (maybe the old main line) but I could very well be wrong. (I have that same Batsford book. I bought it in Stratford in 1976. So, maybe that is where I got the idea.)
Originally posted by FlyingDutchmanSound? white is a piece and a rook down, and although black has been slow developing all of the pieces that white has developed have been sacrificed! I can't see any decent opportunities for white in this position at all, and black has the threat of Qe1 now too, which will slow whites attack further as he shall also have to think about defense.
Probably 12. Rxf6+?! Kxf6 which provides an interesting twist and wiping off Black's development.
I haven't analyzed too far ahead, but I believe that is sound.
10.Be3 is the only way to keep going for white.
Databases can be misleading if you don't know more about the games listed: strong/weak players, long/short games, standard/blindfold/correspondence ..., especially with unorthodox openings. Most of us seem to be convinced that white should be winning now (so do I). But to keep an open mind, here is a CORRESPONDENCE game where black did well from the current position:
[Site "corr"]
[Date "1993.??.??"]
[White "Sharpell,F "]
[Black "Holovics,L "]
[Result "0-1"]
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3 6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qxd4+ 10. Be3 Qf6 11. Bxf4 Ne7 12. Nc3 Nf5 13. Rae1 d6 14. Ne4 Qg6 15. Ng5+ Kg7 16. g4 Nd4 17. Qd5 Nbc6 18. Be3 Ne6 19. h4 Ne5 20. h5 Qe8 21. Bd4 Nxd4 22. Qxd4 Bd7 23. Rf7+ Kg8 24. Rf6 c6 25. h6 b5 26. Ref1 Qe7 27. Ne4 d5 28. Ng3 Nxg4
0-1
1. e4 e5 2. f4 exf4 3. Nf3 g5 4. Bc4 g4 5. O-O gxf3
6. Qxf3 Qf6 7. e5 Qxe5 8. Bxf7+ Kxf7 9. d4 Qxd4+ 10. Be3.
Already extensively debated. I'll be interested in seeing what black comes with after this. I did some extensive research a while back so will need to look it up again but am convinced black struggle now and will be lucky to draw.
Originally posted by FlyingDutchmanWiping out a fair bit of white's development as well. White looks hopelessly lost to me.
Probably 12. Rxf6+?! Kxf6 which provides an interesting twist and wiping off Black's development.
I haven't analyzed too far ahead, but I believe that is sound.
Not relevant now, of course. 10. Be3, same as everyone else.