09 Jul 08
Originally posted by Dragon FireI agree the problem is worse on other sites, but the problem on RHP was far worse before user complaints resulted in the creation of the Game Mods. The Game Mods and public disclosure of banned cheats served as a deterrent up until January of this year. Now that system has been dismantled and we really don't know what it has been replaced with. Whether this site can legitimately claim it is "better" about combating this problem when blatant cheats are still operating after irrefutable proof of their cheating has already been submitted and they continue to be allowed to play, is doubtful.
I don't disagree with you at all on what he was doing.
I am merely counting people like him who are banned for cheating as being in the non engine user category and, of course you are right, such idiots are really easy to catch.
I don't know what percentage of banned cheats fall into this category. Maybe it is not most but I don't really know and t ...[text shortened]... bt and perhaps I am wrong and 50% of players here really are cheating as some are suggesting.
I've never stated, suggested or implied that "50% of the players here are cheats". I've never stated, suggested or implied that there is rampant cheating among players rated in the 1300 range. You should stop suggesting that I have.
09 Jul 08
Originally posted by no1marauderI will take your word that you know what you have said. I certainly haven't the time to go back an reread page upon page of posts. Maybe I am getting you and eldragonfly confused as you both seem to respond to posts simultaneously, in which case I am sure he is overjoyed at causing confusion.
I agree the problem is worse on other sites, but the problem on RHP was far worse before user complaints resulted in the creation of the Game Mods. The Game Mods and public disclosure of banned cheats served as a deterrent up until January of this year. Now that system has been dismantled and we really don't know what it has been replaced with. Whether ...[text shortened]... t cheating among players rated in the 1300 range. You should stop suggesting that I have.
We are actually on the same side and probably agree on 80% - 90% of things, including the things that really matter, so we shouldn't let our disagreements get out of hand.
We are only having this debate because of the demise of a recognisable system which, in my opinion, has been made worse by the removal of the banned player lists. I want to see people I believe are cheating go and publicly humiliated in the forums (after they have gone of course). You want the same so why fight about it?
09 Jul 08
Originally posted by Dragon FireNobody has said this directly, but i find it strange you seem to be "stuck" on this point and argue it ad nauseum. More to the point, anybody that is remotely capable of rational thought and with the barest amount of realworld chess skills would be able to realize that engine use is not confined to your fistful of over 2000 "sticks out like a sore thumb" engine cheats.
Where I have an issue is the insane point that the site is invested with cheaters in the 1300-1500 bracket.
09 Jul 08
2 edits
Originally posted by Dragon FireIf many have suggested that as many as 1/3 of the top 100 players are cheats/engine users, and this is not an uncommon statement then yes cheating is a problem and no it won't magically just go away. That you seem determined to continuously downplay the severity of this without any inside knowledge or proof at all, seems rather strange and counterproductive. Also that you think that engine users magically "disappear" somehow after a certain rating limit/threshold is reached is untenable and for my money quite troubling.
I will take your word that you know what you have said. I certainly haven't the time to go back an reread page upon page of posts. Maybe I am getting you and eldragonfly confused as you both seem to respond to posts simultaneously, in which case I am sure he is overjoyed at causing confusion.
09 Jul 08
1 edit
Originally posted by eldragonflyI would agree with you (for once) that there is currently a serious problem in the top echelons which is the area I suggest needs to be focused on. I never suggested that it magically goes away below a certain level just that it is likely to be less of a problem and not worthy of priority investigation.
If many have suggested that as many as 1/3 of the top 100 players are cheats/engine users, and this is not an uncommon statement then yes cheating is a problem and no it won't magically just go away. That you seem determined to continuously downplay the severity of this without any inside knowledge or proof at all, seems rather strange and counterproduct er a certain rating limit/threshold is reached is untenable and for my money quite troubling.
I am not trying to downplay this problem as it is a problem but merely making the important point that I believe it is not as bad as on some other sites and is not a serious problem in the 1300-1500 bracket.
Now I may be wrong in the 1300-1500 bracket in that selective cheating is actually affecting such players in ways I am unaware of but so far I have not come across a single opponent in this bracket that I feel has been using an engine against me.
09 Jul 08
Originally posted by Dragon FireI have played one player who was about 1400 who roused my suspicions. A month later he had reached approximately 2000, had a nearly vertical graph and was banned. That is the only one I have played when he was at that level. I suspect that the residence time of cheaters at low levels is short if they are using a strong engine at full strength. I suppose it is possible that some (possibly many) cheats use weak engines or strong engines that have been crippled in some way so that they do not fall under suspicion. Why anyone would cheat to reach comparative mediocrity is puzzling.
I would agree with you (for once) that there is currently a serious problem in the top echelons which is the area I suggest needs to be focused on. I never suggested that it magically goes away below a certain level just that it is likely to be less of a problem and not worthy of priority investigation.
I am not trying to downplay this problem as it i ...[text shortened]... t come across a single opponent in this bracket that I feel has been using an engine against me.
09 Jul 08
Originally posted by KeplerI guess this is an area where perhaps I have a problem. I simply cannot understand why "that some (possibly many) cheats use weak engines or strong engines that have been crippled in some way so that they do not fall under suspicion". Simply what is the point of this?
I have played one player who was about 1400 who roused my suspicions. A month later he had reached approximately 2000, had a nearly vertical graph and was banned. That is the only one I have played when he was at that level. I suspect that the residence time of cheaters at low levels is short if they are using a strong engine at full strength. I suppose it is ...[text shortened]... do not fall under suspicion. Why anyone would cheat to reach comparative mediocrity is puzzling.
I did meet 2 players rated circa 1500 when our games started and 1900 or so when they ended who I felt were using engines simply because they played so perfectly and I never felt even slightly in the game. Both were banned some months later.
09 Jul 08
Originally posted by Dragon FireI have trouble understanding why anyone would want to cheat to reach the heady heights of 1700 or 1500 or whatever. Hence my puzzlement about cheating to reach relative mediocrity. I don't see the gain for the cheat but that doesn't mean there isn't any. How many? Haven't got a clue.
I guess this is an area where perhaps I have a problem. I simply cannot understand why "that some (possibly many) cheats use weak engines or strong engines that have been crippled in some way so that they do not fall under suspicion". Simply what is the point of this?
I did meet 2 players rated circa 1500 when our games started and 1900 or so w ...[text shortened]... d so perfectly and I never felt even slightly in the game. Both were banned some months later.
09 Jul 08
Originally posted by Dragon Fireoh come one now that question almost answers itself dragonfire.
I guess this is an area where perhaps I have a problem. I simply cannot understand why "that some (possibly many) cheats use weak engines or strong engines that have been crippled in some way so that they do not fall under suspicion". Simply what is the point of this?
09 Jul 08
Originally posted by eldragonflyand how is that? There simply is no point in using an engine to be mediocre, in my opinion. I simply cannot understand it!
oh come one now that question almost answers itself dragonfire.
A few good books, a database and a little late night reading will achieve the same result and make one feel even better.
09 Jul 08
2 edits
Originally posted by Dragon FirePerhaps they wish to have a better rating without making it so obvious that they are cheating.
and how is that? There simply is no point in using an engine to be mediocre, in my opinion. I simply cannot understand it!
A few good books, a database and a little late night reading will achieve the same result and make one feel even better.
Edit: And 'mediocre' is in the eye of the beholder. If you've been 1000 rated for a year, 1400 may seem like a big number to you.
09 Jul 08
Originally posted by Dragon FireThere is no point asking eldrivelfly a direct question. Experience suggests the probability of receiving a meaningful and informative answer is somewhere between nil and zero.
and how is that? There simply is no point in using an engine to be mediocre, in my opinion. I simply cannot understand it!
A few good books, a database and a little late night reading will achieve the same result and make one feel even better.