@JW's: Do I need to join the JWs to go to heaven?

Originally posted by galveston75
Yes that is just the first step though. But there are many scriptures that explain that works have to be done also. It's not that there is anything we can actually do to gain salvation because the scriptures make it clear that salvation is a gift.
But when Jesus commanded his followers or Christians to do such things as preach the Good News of the King y should we do less?

Although you say it's a gift do you really believe it? Can you lose your salvation?

This genuine misconception is one of the biggest lies there is, propagated by the Babylonic system to maintain control over the laity and drive proselytic (or other) activity through a false belief that it will result in the person saving themselves.

Salvation is a gift through faith - gifts don't cost, can't be earnt, and a gift never gets taken back because it's a gift. Not being able to accept this and believing that you can in some way earn you way into heaven is a mindset that stems from pride and robs God of his glory.

You are confusing post salvation obedience with the price of that salvation, which was clearly documented as being paid in full by Jesus Christ who said himself "it is finished". This is explained here so that no one may claim it by their own efforts:

Ephesians 2: 8-10
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Works come after salvation through obedience and the GIFT of salvation is not conditional on them.

Also
Romans 4:2-5
“Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” ...
Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness

This theme carries on throughout Romans 4 and 5.

Salvation is free, it's discipleship that costs everything.

Originally posted by divegeester
Although you say it's a gift do you really believe it? Can you lose your salvation?

This genuine misconception is one of the biggest lies there is, propagated by the Babylonic system to maintain control over the laity and drive proselytic (or other) activity through a false belief that it will result in the person saving themselves.

Salvation ...[text shortened]... oughout Romans 4 and 5.

Salvation is free, it's discipleship that costs everything.

So......do you have any possible explinations for all those scriptures I posted about works? Do they mean nothing and are in the Bible by mistake? PLease explain.....

Originally posted by galveston75
So are you meek? Do you post statements to me that are of a meek heart?

Ah, you're trying to go off-topic? You hope I would forget the real topic? Doesn't work.

Back to topic. Do you remember the question? What will be your answer?

Originally posted by FabianFnas
Ah, you're trying to go off-topic? You hope I would forget the real topic? Doesn't work.

Back to topic. Do you remember the question? What will be your answer?

I gave my last answer on that subject, period. You answer my questions now if you can...

Originally posted by galveston75
Yes that is just the first step though. But there are many scriptures that explain that works have to be done also. It's not that there is anything we can actually do to gain salvation because the scriptures make it clear that salvation is a gift.
But when Jesus commanded his followers or Christians to do such things as preach the Good News of the King ...[text shortened]... y should we do less?

"first step"? the wording is unambiguous and clear, to read it any other way is to convulate the meaning of the scripture is a sin.

Originally posted by divegeester
... Works come after salvation through obedience and the GIFT of salvation is not conditional on them....

If good works dont come and instead evil works is the result, what then, is the gift of salvation still the end result?

The jails are full of Christians who claim to have be saved.

Originally posted by galveston75
I gave my last answer on that subject, period. You answer my questions now if you can...

The question was at the first posting in this thread was (as you seem to forgot it):
"Can one of the JWs here please answer this simple question with a straight yes or no?"
and I cannot see anywhere a simple yes or now anywhere.

You don't dare, you don't know, you don't want to, answer the simple question with a straight yes or no.
You cannot, no JW culter cannot, so your beliefs seem to be rather weak.

Originally posted by duecer
"first step"? the wording is unambiguous and clear, to read it any other way is to convulate the meaning of the scripture is a sin.

Are you ignoring other words of Christ or Paul which clearly state that good works are required for salvation ? Its not optional.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Are you ignoring other words of Christ or Paul which clearly state that good works are required for salvation ? Its not optional.

are you saying there is a contradiction?

Originally posted by duecer
are you saying there is a contradiction?

If you say faith alone saves OR
If I say works alone saves,
Then one of us is causing the contradiction.

But Im saying that works plus faith saves.
So that there is no contradiction.

Originally posted by duecer
"first step"? the wording is unambiguous and clear, to read it any other way is to convulate the meaning of the scripture is a sin.

But to just go on what Jesus was initially saying and stopping there would be like taking the first clue of a long treasure hunt but refusing to read and follow the many other clues that would take you to the treasure.
And just because Jesus would answer others at times with what seemed to be a short answer does not indicate that more explinations in a fuller detail could not exist later. But in fact there are many scriptures that show that fact. Many times he did make a simple comment on a subject just to get the apostles or others to ponder on it and then he would futher explain. He did that to make them think and reason among themselves in a spiritual manner and to see if they were getting the point.

Originally posted by galveston75
But to just go on what Jesus was initially saying and stopping there would be like taking the first clue of a long treasure hunt but refusing to read and follow the many other clues that would take you to the treasure.
And just because Jesus would answer others at times with what seemed to be a short answer does not indicate that more explinations in ...[text shortened]... ink and reason among themselves in a spiritual manner and to see if they were getting the point.

saying that our works helps gain us us salvation is to cheapen the passion of Christ. No we are saved by grace alone.

Originally posted by duecer
saying that our works helps gain us us salvation is to cheapen the passion of Christ. No we are saved by grace alone.

Well ok then. But you or no one else here has explained all those scriptures that says works have to be involved. One in particular says :Faith without Works is death".
So when you read those scriptures, what is going thru your mind to be able to ignor them? I'm not insulting you but just curious.

Originally posted by Rajk999
If good works dont come and instead evil works is the result, what then, is the gift of salvation still the end result?

The jails are full of Christians who claim to have be saved.

I agree many claim to be Christians and evidently are not - but scripture clearly says it is by their fruits you shall know then, not their works.

But that is about evidence of salvation not salvation itself - works are done in obedience and obedience is essential for a walk with God, but works are not essential for salvation itself - only faith is.

You cannot save yourself by any measure or effort whatsoever, but you can demonstrate your obedience through your good works and your salvation through the fruits of the spirit (love joy peace etc...). I am no leader in the church by any means, but these precepts are the fundamentals of the Christian faith - surely.

Originally posted by divegeester
I agree many claim to be Christians and evidently are not - but scripture clearly says it is by their [b]fruits you shall know then, not their works.

But that is about evidence of salvation not salvation itself - works are done in obedience and obedience is essential for a walk with God, but works are not essential for salvation itself - on ...[text shortened]... he church by any means, but these precepts are the fundamentals of the Christian faith - surely.[/b]

Well there are many teachings in the mainstream Christian religions that are not bible based or true. We've been thru many of them here.
And the works and the result of those works are the fruits they produce. If one does no work in an orchard for example to tend the trees and shape them and protect them and feed them correctly, the fruits will probaly be of a poor quality.
This is an example of what Jesus told us to do with finding ones that want to learn about him out in the world. It's a lot of work but the results can be very rewarding to those who are looking for the truth and willing to be taught by it.
So your wrong..much work is involved to do this. But I agree it secures no salvation for us per say, but we will be doing what God commands us to do and in turn helps to save other life's.
Does that mean anything to you? Does the example of the "use of the Talents when the Master arrives" connect to these fruits at all to you in the 25th chapter of Matt.?