A question of honesty

Originally posted by lemon lime
Why should I talk to anyone I think is being disingenuous?

You don't have to. But there is a lot of disingenuousness in play in this community and it is an aspect of both conduct and content that I actually find quite interesting.

Perhaps the fact that you believe I am disingenuous is what causes you to address such a volume of forum posts to me.

If by "disingenuous" you mean that I have my own memory of personal Christian faith but I am not interested in critiquing it or justifying it or reciting it, and instead, as a non-Christian, I prefer to discuss the varying tenets of the personal Christian faith of the current 'still-Christians' on this message board, then you can call it what you like.

However, I don't think it's what the word "disingenuous" means.

Originally posted by lemon lime
"See through" means transparent...

Well all I can say is that I was a Christian for many years and now I'm not. As for talking about things from this perspective, I have always been up front and transparent about it.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
DT, thanks for your candid comments and my apology for this less than timely reply. Fully agree with your doubt that "... if God does exist he'd be overly worried about whether one stands up or sits down to pray, and I don't think he'd keep out people for not quite getting his nature right..." This fixation on peripheral details has always been and sti ...[text shortened]... an agnostic". What does agnosticism mean to you and what are its short and longer term benefits?

The thing about agnostics is that we don't pretend to know whether God exists or not. It's possible to be either an atheist or theist agnostic, but I don't believe either way. Knowledge is generally described as something along the lines of justified belief which is true. To believe something we need some justification beyond hearing the idea. Many of the Christians here take that from the Bible, or some kind of intuition about how things are. Since there's no way of determining if there is a god or not the best I can hope for is belief which is true, producing any kind of justification - at least that I'd accept - is hard as you'd need God to come along and go boo! In order for me to believe something I need some level of justification and so I while I don't believe in God I don't believe the converse either, since that belief isn't justified anyway. This seems to annoy atheists more than theists which is strange.

Originally posted by lemon lime
Show me a forum where there is only peace and harmony. The fact you are calling this a debate forum is somewhat interesting.

I'm clearly contesting your inference that there should not be "strife" in this forum. I don't see why you would find my use of the term "debating forum" interesting as this is debating forum whether you like the name or not. It seems to me that you just don't like to be debated; perhaps you are "king billy" in your particular church, maybe the pastor even gives you the floor on occasions, but here you will find people won't just sit quietly and listen to your waffly pontifications, deflections and dishonesty.

Originally posted by lemon lime
[b]I am not posting here as a Christian. I am posting here as a non-Christian.

Yes, but you are also posting here as former Christian. Few of us here have overlooked this distinction, even if you think it's a minor point or irrelevant. It can't be irrelevant because you've told us you were a Bible believing Christian for many years.

So wh ...[text shortened]... er of a church and showed up for services, but I'm not so sure about the "Bible believing" part.[/b]

Why do you see such a mystery in FMFs "story". Why is it so hard to believe? He grew up a Christian and after 28 years decided the faith was not for him. He's not claiming he's an alien or has raised someone from the dead.

Originally posted by divegeester
Why do you see such a mystery in FMFs "story". Why is it so hard to believe? He grew up a Christian and after 28 years decided the faith was not for him.

I have met a fair few people with a similar life experience to mine in terms of faith. I don't think it's especially unusual or controversial. The 28 years I mention do not include my childhood years. I finally came to terms with the fact that I no longer held Christian beliefs about 10 years ago, maybe less. I would say the process of going from Christian to ex-Christian took about four or five years in my late 30s.

Originally posted by FMF
Well all I can say is that I was a Christian for many years and now I'm not. As for talking about things from this perspective, I have always been up front and transparent about it.

You could add information about your Islamic background.

Originally posted by RJHinds
You could add information about your Islamic background.

I've been living in the world's biggest Muslim majority country for the last 11 years although there are a disproportionately high number of Christians in the circles in which I move ~ and this has always been so, including when I lived here for three years over 20 years ago.

Originally posted by FMF
I've been living in the world's biggest Muslim majority country for the last 11 years although there are a disproportionately high number of Christians in the circles in which I move ~ and this has always been so, including when I lived here for three years over 20 years ago.

What part of your Islamic understanding conflict with your Christian views?

Originally posted by divegeester
Why do you see such a mystery in FMFs "story". Why is it so hard to believe? He grew up a Christian and after 28 years decided the faith was not for him. He's not claiming he's an alien or has raised someone from the dead.

He grew up a Christian

If by that you mean he grew up in a Christian household, then I would like to point out that being raised in a Christian household does not make one a Christian. I asked him directly (on at least two occasions) if he had grown up in a Christian household, and he didn't answer.

It's possible you may have just now told me something he didn't want me know.


Edit: And now I know his version of events:

"The 28 years I mention do not include my childhood years."

I also know you two aren't the same person... because if you were you would be able to keep your stories straight.

Originally posted by RJHinds
What part of your Islamic understanding conflict with your Christian views?

I subscribe to neither religion. As people to know, work with and live amongst, my Islamic and Christian neighbours are much of a muchness.

Originally posted by RJHinds
What part of your Islamic understanding conflict with your Christian views?

FMF has been stating in this forum for as long as I can remember that he is not Christian; he is ex-Christian, so how could his understanding of the Islamic faith possibly conflict with his "Christian views" when he is not a Christian?

Originally posted by lemon lime
If by that you mean he grew up in a Christian household, then I would like to point out that being raised in a Christian household does not make one a Christian. I asked him directly (on at least two occasions) if he had grown up in a Christian household, and he didn't answer.

I think I did answer, actually. And it's no secret that I was raised in a Christian family. I have spoken about it here countless times. The '28 years of being a Christian' that I mention do not include my childhood years.

Originally posted by lemon lime
It's possible you may have just now told me something he didn't want me know.

How terribly exciting for you.

Originally posted by lemon lime
I asked him directly (on at least two occasions) if he had grown up in a Christian household, and he didn't answer.

19th September 2014

Originally posted by lemon lime
You were a Christian for almost 30 years... don't feel you need to answer because these are personal questions, but I am curious as to 1) what denomination you belonged to, 2) how old you were when you became a Christian, and 3) were you raised in a Christian home... in other words, were your parents Christians?

Originally posted by FMF
[1] Catholic. [2] When I count the 28 years, I do so from about the age of 16 because it was from then on that I can say that it was my own decision to profess the belief ~ I don't count the 'Christian years' prior to that i.e. childhood. [3] Yes. I went to Christian schools. I was still a Christian many years later and after I'd started my own family.