addiction is a choice

Originally posted by FMF
I am happy to hear of people freeing themselves of their addiction to alcohol, regardless of exactly how they do it, and regardless of their religion, so I would be interested to hear how you think your programme would apply to non-Christian alcoholics.

From a non-Christian perspective, is alcoholism intrinsically bad? Or is it only 'bad' from your perspective because other people have decided it is bad?

Originally posted by FMF
I think he intended his hey just threaten to kill them with a gun thing to explain the willpower thing and so demonstrate the abundance of his experience and knowledge thing regarding the alcoholism thing. 😛

If addiction is not 'choice based' it means every addict would take a bullet to the brain, rather than choose not to have a drink. Clearly you know that can't be the case else you would have argued that.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
If I told that that every alcoholic that I know that 'had a real meeting with Jesus' has been 'cured' of their alcoholism, what would you say about that?

Maybe I'd say this:

'Don't tell me... wait, let me see... how does it go? Oh yeah...and every Jesus-believing alcoholic that you know that didn't get cured of their alcoholism simply didn't have "a REAL meeting with Jesus" so they only have themselves to blame and (this is important) they don't mess up my very, very scientific "every alcoholic that I know" thing... have I got that right?'

Yep. I might say/ask that.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
If addiction is not 'choice based' it means every addict would take a bullet to the brain, rather than choose not to have a drink. Clearly you know that can't be the case else you would have argued that.

Do you even understand what it is that I have argued?

Originally posted by FMF
Maybe I'd say this:

'Don't tell me... wait, let me see... how does it go? Oh yeah...and every Jesus-believing alcoholic that you know that [b]didn't get cured of their alcoholism simply didn't have "a REAL meeting with Jesus" so they only have themselves to blame and (this is important) they don't mess up my very, very scientific "every alcoholic that I know" thing... have I got that right?'

Yep. I might say/ask that.[/b]

A real Christian would probably believe this to be true:

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
From a non-Christian perspective, is alcoholism intrinsically bad? Or is it only 'bad' from your perspective because other people have decided it is bad?

Run this breathless mush past me again. And try to do it in a way that addresses the post of mine it was in response to.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
A real Christian would probably believe this to be true:

1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except what is common to mankind. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can endure it.

This is not addressing the content of the post of mine you are purporting to be responding to.

Originally posted by FMF
Run this breathless mush past me again. And try to do it in a way that addresses the post of mine it was in response to.

It seems all along you have made the assumption that 'alcoholism' is unequivocally wrong. I would like to know from a non-Christian perspective why you view it to be unequivocally wrong in the first place? So we have some sort of platform to work off.

Originally posted by FMF
This is not addressing the content of the post of mine you are purporting to be responding to.

Any 'real Christian' would not live in 'willful sin'. The Bible clearly sates that the drunkards will be found 'outside the kingdom of Heaven.'

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
It seems all along you have made the assumption that 'alcoholism' is unequivocally wrong. I would like to know from a non-Christian perspective why you view it to be unequivocally wrong in the first place? So we have some sort of platform to work off.

My concern - in so far as I have been discussing this subject on this thread - is with people who want to 'recover' from alcoholism. The only moral issues ~ the question of "wrong" ~ surrounding alcoholism, for me, are where an alcoholic is damaging or hurting someone else or behaving in a way that is detrimental to those who are around them or depend on them, or where they are deceiving people or coercing them in some way.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Any 'real Christian' would not live in 'willful sin'. The Bible clearly sates that the drunkards will be found 'outside the kingdom of Heaven.'

OK, I see. Your 'interest' in alcoholism is limited to this TrueChristian™ aspect then. I understand.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
Any 'real Christian' would not live in 'willful sin'. The Bible clearly sates that the drunkards will be found 'outside the kingdom of Heaven.'

How many alcoholic believers in Jesus do you know who have not been 'cured' by this 'recover or be damned' prescription?

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
What I am trying to say is that the will of man is more powerful than any addiction. Everyone has the willpower to say no regardless of how strong the temptation may be. If that were not true then no addict would ever be able to stop with their addiction.

If you had first-hand experience of the subject I do not think you would have such a black and white view of addiction. I can assure you many victims of addiction simply do not have the willpower in their current situation to even begin to battle their condition. Many will repeatedly fail even in the best of circumstances. I'm surprised that you, as a christian, appear to lack the compassion to understand that fact.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
I did. I was referring to this post that I had made earlier.

"If someone claimed to be addicted to drinking and you held a gun to their head and told them either stop drinking or a take a bullet to the head, do you think they won't be able to choose not to drink and take the bullet?"

I have known, and still know, several alcoholics who would, if asked at the wrong time, immediately take the drink regardless of the impending bullet.

Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk
From a non-Christian perspective, is alcoholism intrinsically bad? Or is it only 'bad' from your perspective because other people have decided it is bad?

It ruins the lives (and indeed more often than not ends them prematurely) of the sufferer and blights the lives of those around them. I would say that that is pretty bad, yes.