Aliens, Reincarnation and Dasa

Originally posted by karoly aczel
1. No. Relatives,yeah...

2.Reincarnation is totally misunderstood by nearly every poster on here. I am not saying I understand it that much better, but I know its not as simplistic as anyone has made it out to be , especially its main PROPONENT, Dasa.
I dont think we should be debating things like reincarnation because of the time it wastes explaining not very much, other than ego satisfaction.

In the case of reincarnation how can the population continue to increase if there are a finite number of souls available.

With regards to aliens. Billions and billions of stars and no interstellar children of God. Methinks the odds do not favor you emphatic 'no'.

Originally posted by FMF
Asking me a question is not an example of "evidence". If you have any evidence I'd be interested in hearing it.

I asked because I want to know where you are coming from to save time.

I say all life is energy. That energy is eternal. That energy never dies. I do not identify myself w/this temporal body we are currently using. Yes that does decay but not the life force. The energy, The Self, who and what we are. Many OBE's prove this IMO. I have experienced this, Karoly and many others here, as well.
Now, I cant prove it to you here, I admit. At the same time you cant prove different.
The fact that you identify The Self as physical and I do not is the hang up.
This is the spirituality forum and I am speaking on a spiritual level.

Originally posted by utherpendragon
I say all life is energy. That energy is eternal. That energy never dies. I do not identify myself w/this temporal body we are currently using. Yes that does decay but not the life force. The energy, The Self, who and what we are.

You are simply sharing with me your speculation and hopes about supernatural things. I have no wish to dissuade you from believing what you believe. But I reject any claim that you have proof of life after death.

Many OBE's prove this IMO. I have experienced this, Karoly and many others here, as well.

Your opinion, no matter how firmly held, does not amount to evidence. Stories people tell about OBEs do not prove anything.

Now, I cant prove it to you here, I admit. At the same time you cant prove different.

There is no onus on me to prove a negative. That we die is irrefutable. It is a fact of life, we can agree on that. You have a theory about something that happens subsequent to that. The onus is on you to prove that - at least if you seek to convince me, which you do not have to if you don't want to.

This is the spirituality forum and I am speaking on a spiritual level.

Yes, well, so am I.

Originally posted by FMF
You are simply sharing with me your speculation and hopes about supernatural things. I have no wish to dissuade you from believing what you believe. But I reject any claim that you have proof of life after death.

[b]Many OBE's prove this IMO. I have experienced this, Karoly and many others here, as well.

Your opinion, no matter how firmly held, does no ...[text shortened]... s is the spirituality forum and I am speaking on a spiritual level.[/b]

Yes, well, so am I.[/b]

Now, I cant prove it to you here, I admit. At the same time you cant prove different.

There is no onus on me to prove a negative. That we die is irrefutable. It is a fact of life, we can agree on that. You have a theory about something that happens subsequent to that. The onus is on you to prove that - at least if you seek to convince me, which you do not have to if you don't want to.

"That we die is irrefutable." Thats the hang up here, as I keep saying. It is as plain as the nose on my face that we are more than flesh and blood. The body dies off yes but thats not who and what we are.

Being such a Grateful Dead fan and what goes along w/it I assumed you may have had some sort of spiritual awakening or at the very least a "experience" at some point in this journey.
Sorry to personalize ( I keep getting reported for that lately) but I think it is relevant so as to come to some sort of understanding.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
1. So are we alone? Surely you have some relatives out there?

2. How do you feel about reincarnation?

Second chapter of Bhagavad-gita (2.20-25) describes characteristics of the soul:

"For the soul there is neither birth nor death. It has not come into being, does not come into being, and will not come into being. It is unborn, eternal, ever-existing and primeval. It is not slain when the body is slain. As a person puts on new garments, giving up old ones, the soul similarly accepts new material bodies, giving up the old and useless ones. The soul can never be cut to pieces by any weapon, nor burned by fire, nor moistened by water, nor withered by the wind. This individual soul is unbreakable and insoluble, and can be neither burned nor dried. He is everlasting, present everywhere, unchangeable, immovable and eternally the same. It is said that the soul is invisible, inconceivable and immutable. Knowing this, you should not grieve for the body."

All these qualities of of the soul are outside the field of perceivable molecular reactions. Niels Bohr (1885-1962), Danish nuclear physicist and Nobel Prize laureate, noted:

"In physics and chemistry we cannot find anything at least marginally proving the existence of consciousness. And still we all know that there is something like consciousness, simply because we have it ourselves. Consciousness therefore must be a part of nature, or expressed more commonly, a part of reality. This means that aside of physical and chemical laws described quantum theory there are laws with completely different nature."

Some points of interest that will give weight to the truth of reincarnation.....

1.It is an absolute fact that science has done studies of consciousness surviving the body and have clinical evidence.

2. It is an absolute fact that when some persons are under hypnosis and supervised by science orientated persons.....that when they are taken back to earlier existence that they speak a different language, and it can only be explained that they are speaking a language that they knew in a different life.

3. Under the same hypnosis experiments, persons have described in detail where they lived in another life having never visited that place and knowing nothing about it, and on investigation their details where proven accurate.

3. It is an absolute fact and has been documented that when persons have died and have somewhat later been revived, that they can recall conversations in detail that took place by the persons reviving them.

But the most reliable proof is that the Authority Vedanta has clearly explained reincarnation in detail.

Persons who reject reincarnation whimsically, do so because to accept it would have them admit that all their religious and science literature is bogus, so they have to lend themselves to untruthfulness to support their false presentations.

Persons also whimsically reject reincarnation because to accept it, would have them admit to the soul and God, which they cannot do for it would make their beliefs in error.......once again they have to lend themselves to untruthfulness in an attempt to defend their bogus teachings.

There is much information supporting reincarnation than there is for rejecting it....actually there is nothing that could be said that would support rejecting reincarnation....... absolutely nothing.

Originally posted by utherpendragon
"That we die is irrefutable." Thats the hang up here, as I keep saying. It is as plain as the nose on my face that we are more than flesh and blood. The body dies off yes but thats not who and what we are.

While the existence of the nose on your face is supported by evidence, your assertions that we will be reincarnated or continue to "live" after death is merely speculation and hope. As I said before, the strength of your sincerity and certainty do not constitute evidence.

Being such a Grateful Dead fan and what goes along w/it I assumed you may have had some sort of spiritual awakening or at the very least a "experience" at some point in this journey.

This is irrelevant personalization. It reminds me of Dasa/vishavetu. He too insists that all those who do not share his system of beliefs and superstitions are somehow less "spiritual" than him.

If some U.S. rock band has offered you some kind of "awakening" about the certainty that there is life after death then that is a matter for you. For you to imply you are disappointed that it didn't have the same effect on me is hardly a convincing 'point' to be making.

It's funny how disagreements with religionists so quickly deteriorate into this kind of attempted personalization. Why would you act so defensively if what you believe is as plain as the nose on your face?

Originally posted by Dasa
But the most reliable proof is that the Authority Vedanta has clearly explained reincarnation in detail.

Thank you for explaining what you believe. I myself do not recognize or submit to what you call "Authority Vedanta". I state this in all honesty and without whimsy. Do you understand my stance?

Originally posted by utherpendragon
Sorry to personalize ( I keep getting reported for that lately) but I think it is relevant so as to come to some sort of understanding.

There is, of course, no reason to personalize the issue. I do not need "to come to some sort of understanding" because I understand already. You have speculated - either independently or in accordance with a religious dogma - about the supernatural and the nature of life, and you have become certain that there is 'life after death'. I understand this perfectly.

Originally posted by FMF
Thank you for explaining what you believe. I myself do not recognize or submit to what you call "Authority Vedanta". I state this in all honesty and without whimsy. Do you understand my stance?

The thing is FMF....your rejection is done simply on whimsical emotion and not because of knowledge.

As I said in another post there is no credit for rejecting authority, for even a 7yr old can reject.

One does not have to know anything at all to reject.

On the other hand to accept one has to be informed, and the more informed they are the more they shall accept.

This is the tenth time you have informed me of your whimsical rejection....I do get it.

And its quiet puzzling because when a person says that they are a theist, and they are presented with where there can be found a wealth of spiritual knowledge (Vedanta).....why would they not dive into that and expand there understanding..........they could not reject, unless they are not really a true genuine theist.

Originally posted by Dasa
On the other hand to accept one has to be informed, and the more informed they are the more they shall accept.

You are misusing the word "whimsical ", Dasa. I have examined the Vedic teachings and I do not recognize or submit to their "authority". I understand that you do.

Originally posted by Dasa
And its quiet puzzling because when a person says that they are a theist, and they are presented with where there can be found a wealth of spiritual knowledge (Vedanta).....why would they not dive into that and expand there understanding..........they could not reject, unless they are not really a true genuine theist.

There is much, much more to "theism" than "Vedanta". Surely you are aware of this? Your assertion that only a follower of Vedic "authority" can "really [be] a true genuine theist" is only relevant and credible to someone - like you - who acknowledges and submits to that Vedic "authority". To the rest of us, it is not an "authority" at all. Do you understand and respect this stance?

Originally posted by FMF
There is much, much more to "theism" than "Vedanta". Surely you are aware of this? Your assertion that only a follower of Vedic "authority" can "really [be] a true genuine theist" is only relevant and credible to someone - like you - who acknowledges and submits to that Vedic "authority". To the rest of us, it is not an "authority" at all. Do you understand and respect this stance?

I would respect that stance if it was an informed stance....but it is a whimsical stance based on lack of understanding.

If you say it is not the authority which you have the right to do, then you must inform me of the true authority and give some description of its teaching.

After all this is the spirituality forum where we are all discussing our spirituality and I am here to learn as well, so if their is another authority then I would like to hear about it and learn from it.

Originally posted by Dasa
If you say it is not the authority which you have the right to do, then you must inform me of the true authority and give some description of its teaching.

I "...must inform [you] of the true authority and give some description of its teaching"? No I don't. I am not a religionist.

Originally posted by Dasa
After all this is the spirituality forum where we are all discussing our spirituality and I am here to learn as well, so if their is another authority then I would like to hear about it and learn from it.

I have no "authority" to "present" and I have no 'instructions from God' to insist you heed. As for my own spiritual beliefs, they were laid out in a thread entitled "I am a theist" started by John W. Booth (when I was using that screen name) a few months ago. Whether you are able to "learn" something from that discussion, then that is a matter for you.

Originally posted by Dasa
I would respect that stance if it was an informed stance....but it is a whimsical stance based on lack of understanding.

I fully understand that this is what you sincerely believe.