At what point in time does salvation begin?

Originally posted by josephw
Only idiots and liars that do not know or understand the gospel of Jesus Christ say that one needs to stop sinning to be saved. It's irrationally illogical to think that one must stop sinning to be saved. If that were true, then Jesus died for our sins in vain.

Well, maybe. Or another possibility is that, within the terms of reference of your ideology, Jesus certainly did die in vain if his followers go around claiming that "only idiots and liars" say that one needs to stop sinning. Do you believe that Jesus died so that you wouldn't need to stop sinning?

Originally posted by FMF
Well, maybe. Or another possibility is that, within the terms of reference of your ideology, Jesus certainly did die in vain if his followers go around claiming that "only idiots and liars" say that one needs to stop sinning. Do you believe that Jesus died so that you wouldn't need to stop sinning?

Pure obfuscation. Since you deny the legitimacy of scripture as the source of truth your statements are without merit and only serve to underscore your lack of understanding about the matter of salvation.

In other words, I'd be better off talking to a wall.

Originally posted by josephw
Pure obfuscation. Since you deny the legitimacy of scripture as the source of truth your statements are without merit and only serve to underscore your lack of understanding about the matter of salvation.

I don't have to believe the same things as you in order to question you about ideological claims you make in public. I am just going by the "understanding" that you demonstrate and seek to project.

'If you believe in Jesus you will live forever and, get this, it's OK if you keep sinning.'

Sounds like you got a marketing company to help you with your easy-peasy the more-the-merrier recruitment drive. 😉

Originally posted by FMF
I don't have to believe the same things as you in order to question you about ideological claims you make in public. I am just going by the "understanding" that you demonstrate and seek to project.

'If you believe in Jesus you will live forever and, get this, it's OK if you keep sinning.'

Sounds like you got a marketing company to help you with your easy-peasy the more-the-merrier recruitment drive. 😉

" 'If you believe in Jesus you will live forever and, get this, it's OK if you keep sinning.' "

Those are your words. Just your attempt to obfuscate.

Originally posted by josephw
[b]" 'If you believe in Jesus you will live forever and, get this, it's OK if you keep sinning.' "

Those are your words. Just your attempt to obfuscate.[/b]

It's how you're coming across.

So Christians don't need to stop "sinning"? They just have to "believe in Christ"? Is that right?

Are there degrees of trying to stop "sinning"? Or is "sin" simply irrelevant as a consequence of Jesus being executed?

Are there "sins" that cancel out "salvation"?

It's up to you to render the claims and statements you make in public coherent.

FMF: 'If you believe in Jesus you will live forever and, get this, it's OK if you keep sinning.'

Originally posted by josephw
Those are your words. Just your attempt to obfuscate.

In what way does my paraphrase obfuscate your meaning?

Originally posted by yoctobyte
I don't know why it matters who was first, but in looking into Acts 1 I read it was 120 gathered together as Peter was talking to them.

[b]Acts 1:15-16 English Standard Version (ESV)

15 In those days Peter stood up among the brothers (the company of persons was in all about 120) and said, 16 “Brothers, the Scripture had to b ...[text shortened]... er had preached and as a part of the 3,000.

That's how I read it, do you read it differently?[/b]

The Apostles were first....

Originally posted by josephw
Unless you can state categorically that you have stopped sinning and have obtained salvation by doing so you may as well shut your lying mouth. And if you do say you have stopped sinning and have attained salvation by doing so I will call you a liar again.

If Christians believe that they are saved by faith alone and not also as a result of their works/morality/avoidance of "sin"/good behaviour/compassion etc. then what aspects of their lives exactly do they believe will be judged on "Judgement Day"? Merely whether or not they had "faith"?

Originally posted by FMF
If Christians believe that they are saved by faith alone and not also as a result of their works/morality/avoidance of "sin"/good behaviour/compassion etc. then what aspects of their lives exactly do they believe will be judged on "Judgement Day"? Merely whether or not they had "faith"?

You seem to be harbouring the idea that faith is a standalone quality when infact the Christian is counselled to exercise faith. Thus if a person has and exercises faith it will undoubtedly make itself manifest in their conduct, works, morality, behaviour and compassion as thy apply the principles and tenets of their faith. The problem has been that there are those who deem it expedient and who genuinely think that it is enough simply to say that one has faith. This is based on looking at a single verse in isolation

If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9

There are many verse which demonstrate that this cannot be all that is required, fpr example the words of the Christ, 'Many will say to me Lord Lord' ... and Jesus will say, 'I never knew you get away from me you workers of lawlessness', 'faith without works is dead' - book of James etc etc

So faith then is an organic quality which needs to be exercised by study and application of the principles and tenets which one learns. Too many Christians are harbouring the delusion that all that it takes is to believe in Jesus which simply ignores a plethora of other Biblical verses.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
You seem to be harbouring the idea that faith is a standalone quality when infact the Christian is counselled to exercise faith.

As I asked my question, I had in mind the version of Christian theology propagated by this community's so-called 'Once Saved Always Saved' contingent ~ josephw being one of them, hence my question being addressed to him. I am exploring what ideas about faith Christians like him are harbouring.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
The problem has been that there are those who deem it expedient and who genuinely think that it is enough simply to say that one has faith. This is based on looking at a single verse in isolation [...] Too many Christians are harbouring the delusion that all that it takes is to believe in Jesus which simply ignores a plethora of other Biblical verses.

It's rather interesting how you are talking to me - a non-Christian - about it [or through me, perhaps?] and yet I can scarcely remember you addressing such 'through faith alone' type Christians here on this forum (there are several of them) in a substantial way.

Originally posted by FMF
As I asked my question, I had in mind the version of Christian theology propagated by this community's so-called 'Once Saved Always Saved' contingent ~ josephw being one of them, hence my question being addressed to him. I am exploring what ideas about faith Christians like him are harbouring.

Ok, I understand and wish you well in your exploration. 😀

Originally posted by FMF
It's rather interesting how you are talking to me - a non-Christian - about it [or through me, perhaps?] and yet I can scarcely remember you addressing such 'through faith alone' type Christians here on this forum (there are several of them) in a substantial way.

I was responding to your post and the ideas that were inherent. Perhaps your memory is not what it used to be old bean! one can hardly take it as a reliable basis for making such outlandish claims..

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I was responding to your post and the ideas that were inherent. Perhaps your memory is not what it used to be old bean! one can hardly take it as a reliable basis for making such outlandish claims..

If you have indeed tackled the OSAS Christians over their championing of 'faith alone' it must have been buried in some posts about something else, or something you have scarcely ever broached with them ~ aside from you talking rather self-righteously about how you yourself go door to door trying to give away free magazines, something you used to blow your own trumpet about, so to speak, with peculiar regularity.

Originally posted by KellyJay
Let me narrow the question to these three possible answers. My fault on the confusion
NOT YOU.

1. In this life time before death
2. In the next life time after death
3. Something else

Are we in agreement that salvation begins in this life time?
I see the discussion is still going on about the details, but the timing of the beginning does
it start in this life time or the next?