At what point in time does salvation begin?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I believe you are misunderstanding what Jesus said.
Yes, those who sin are slaves of sin, because sin has consequences.
This is confirmed in Romans 6.
When Jesus said he sets us free, it is from our present entanglement with sin, not permanently.
If one is to interpret your ideology the way you do, it would contradict scripture elsewhere.
All of man ...[text shortened]... 0 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV
[/b]

Jesus plainly states:
1) that everybody who commits sin is the slave of sin.
2) that His true disciples will be made free.
3) that the slave will not remain in the house forever and those made free will remain in the house forever.
4) that those made free will be free indeed.

Based on what you wrote here, it seems that because you hold your dogma above the words of Jesus, you believe it impossible for anyone to be made "free indeed". In short you don't believe Jesus. In effect you reject what Jesus plainly states.

That's what you get when you hold dogma above of the words of Jesus. You end up rejecting what Jesus plainly states and replacing it with your dogma. This despite the fact that perhaps the most prevalent theme in His teaching is the importance of His word: Understanding, believing, following and keeping His word. His word should always be held above dogma.

Conceptually what you've replaced it with is absurd. You believe that at best His followers will BOTH continue to commit sin AND are "free" despite the fact that according to what Jesus plainly states, means that they remain "slaves to sin". It's nonsensical. Remove the dogma and what Jesus plainly states all makes sense. Imagine that.

BTW, given other things written in 1 John, it would seem that 1 John 1:8-10 is referring to sins committed prior to "walk[ing] in the light, as he is in the light,".

As it says in 1 John 1:
5This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

As it says in 1 John 3:
4Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law. 5And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. 6Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him. 7Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 8He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil. 9Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 10In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jesus plainly states:
1) that everybody who commits sin is the slave of sin.
2) that His true disciples will be made free.
3) that the slave will not remain in the house forever and those made free will remain in the house forever.
4) that those made free will be free indeed.

Based on what you wrote here, it seems that because you hold your dogma ...[text shortened]... devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

Do you abide in sin my son? fess up and let the healing begin.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Do you abide in sin my son? fess up and let the healing begin.

Sinning is strictly a theist preoccupation.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Sinning is strictly a theist preoccupation.

Au contraire my godless friend, sinning is missing the mark of Gods standards which is applicable to everyone theist or atheistic sapling!

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Au contraire my godless friend, sinning is missing the mark of Gods standards which is applicable to everyone theist or atheistic sapling!

Indeed sir. 'Sinning is missing the mark of God's standards.'

Atheists, as non believers in God, are not accountable to his standards and are therefore incapable of sin. (Which is strictly a theist preoccupation).

The worst an atheist can do is misdemeanors and parking violations.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Jesus plainly states:
1) that everybody who commits sin is the slave of sin.
2) that His true disciples will be made free.
3) that the slave will not remain in the house forever and those made free will remain in the house forever.
4) that those made free will be free indeed.

Based on what you wrote here, it seems that because you hold your dogma ...[text shortened]... devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

What's absurd is that you expect us to believe that you no longer sin.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
What's absurd is that you expect us to believe that you no longer sin.

I imagine that if you were able to refute the scripture and reasoning I presented, you would have. Instead you responded with a false claim to deflect from this fact. It's dishonest.

If you can refute what I wrote about John 8 or 1 John 1, then do so. If you can't, then simply admit that you're wrong about both of those passages.

While you're at it, you should seriously consider reevaluating your dogma so that it doesn't conflict with the words of Jesus. Assuming that the words of Jesus are of importance to you.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
I imagine that if you were able to refute the scripture and reasoning I presented, you would have. Instead you responded with a false claim to deflect from this fact. It's dishonest.

If you can refute what I wrote about John 8 or 1 John 1, then do so. If you can't, then simply admit that you're wrong about both of those passages.

While you're at it ...[text shortened]... n't conflict with the words of Jesus. Assuming that the words of Jesus are of importance to you.

I have already refuted John 8, but here is the thing....
What you think,as far as being obedient will keep you in good graces with God is wrong.
I will list the scriptures if you wish, but to be brief let me just say our righteousness before God is like filthy rags to Him.
We are like the scum that circles around the drain of your bathtub to God and Jesus.
He didn't choose us because we were so obedient to Him, nor because we did anything to earn His love.
God is love and and what He has given us is a gift. A gift without conditions.
You can't add to His gift and you can't make Him love us any more, nor any less by your actions.
You are the one with a corrupted dogma sir.
What Jesus did for every human was to die on a cross for our sins. God approved this sacrifice by raising him out from among the dead.
The only, and I mean only reason God saves anyone is through their acceptance of the free gift of salvation. That is to receive Christ as Lord and believe God raised him from the dead.
God made it simple. He knows our frame, He knows we have a sinful nature, so He sent His Son to be the payment for our sins once and forevermore.
Any good works I do or don't do will not cause God to love me any more or any less.
We do good works because of our love and gratitude for God and Jesus. But those same good works or no works will not tip the scales either way. All they will do is earn or in some cases lose rewards.
This notion that you must be obedient to be saved or else is preposterous.
If God were to judge you on your works, you would lose every time. Even if it were possible to not sin, you still would fall short.
The only reason I am saved and I know it, is because Jesus Christ already accomplished salvation for me on the cross.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Indeed sir. 'Sinning is missing the mark of God's standards.'

Atheists, as non believers in God, are not accountable to his standards and are therefore incapable of sin. (Which is strictly a theist preoccupation).

The worst an atheist can do is misdemeanors and parking violations.

No Atheist will be judged by their own standards and God's law.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I have already refuted John 8, but here is the thing....
What you think,as far as being obedient will keep you in good graces with God is wrong.
I will list the scriptures if you wish, but to be brief let me just say our righteousness before God is like filthy rags to Him.
We are like the scum that circles around the drain of your bathtub to God and J ...[text shortened]... saved and I know it, is because Jesus Christ already accomplished salvation for me on the cross.

Interesting how you quote what Jesus says and then say that it is wrong and preposterous. Some examples:

Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 14:15-16 IF ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
John 15:10 IF ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you. .

I support and believe in what Jesus said. You clearly dont. And if your doctrine does not mesh with the doctrine of Jesus Christ then you are nothing.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Interesting how you quote what Jesus says and then say that it is wrong and preposterous. Some examples:

[b]Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 14:15-16 IF ye love me, keep my comm ...[text shortened]... ont. And if your doctrine does not mesh with the doctrine of Jesus Christ then you are nothing.

Interesting that you can tell someone they are wrong without saying how or why, all you
do is quote Jesus a few times without explaining how or why the quotes you choose
have anything to do with the topic you are claiming is in error.

I guess you'd have to give your thoughts on that which would be wrong as you see it, but
then that is what you are implying that you see something wrong. You are just not able to
explain why it is because you could be challenged on your views. No wonder you only
spout off as you do without every backing anything up with specifics. You must think that
having to explaining yourself is below you, even though the scripture teaches we should
be able to give reasons for the hope you have. I suppose for you that part about being
gentle and respectful get in the way of your accusations and name calling.

1 Peter 3:15

But in your hearts revere Christ as Lord. Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

Originally posted by KellyJay
Interesting that you can tell someone they are wrong without saying how or why, all you
do is quote Jesus a few times without explaining how or why the quotes you choose
have anything to do with the topic you are claiming is in error.

I guess you'd have to give your thoughts on that which would be wrong as you see it, but
then that is what you are imp ...[text shortened]... asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect,

The fact that you need these simple statements by Christ explained:

Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 14:15-16 IF ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
John 15:10 IF ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

... means that you are a lost soul. I cannot help you.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The fact that you need these simple statements by Christ explained:

[b]Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 14:15-16 IF ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, ...[text shortened]... of my Father which is in heaven.

... means that you are a lost soul. I cannot help you.[/b]

I do not need to have them explained to me, but you on the other hand wish to use them
to make a point, but you are to gutless to do so. So what you do is simply say these
scriptures show someone else is wrong, without taking the time to explain why they show
that. Your brain dead method of debate is simply quote some scripture and say this is why
your wrong without ever connecting the reason why with the scripture you are quoting.

Lost soul, why....because I cannot read your mind and it is very wrong to ask you what
you think?

Originally posted by KellyJay
I do not need to have them explained to me, but you on the other hand wish to use them
to make a point, but you are to gutless to do so. So what you do is simply say these
scriptures show someone else is wrong, without taking the time to explain why they show
that. Your brain dead method of debate is simply quote some scripture and say this is why
your ...[text shortened]... st soul, why....because I cannot read your mind and it is very wrong to ask you what
you think?

Ok I will try to help you along. First, which of these do you find difficult to understand:? Pick one and I will explain it.

Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 14:15-16 IF ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever
John 15:10 IF ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
John 15:14 Ye are my friends, IF ye do whatsoever I command you.
Matt 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Ok I will try to help you along. First, which of these do you find difficult to understand:? Pick one and I will explain it.

Matt 19:17 .. IF thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
John 8:31 IF ye continue in my word, THEN are ye my disciples indeed;
John 8:51 .. IF a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.
John 14:15-16 IF ye lo ...[text shortened]... ter into the kingdom of heaven; BUT he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

All of these verses were written to people who did not truly obey God before the day of Pentecost, before people could be born again. The new birth was not yet available.
There was not yet a guarantee of salvation like it says in Ephesians.
The day of Pentecost in Acts1 when the promise of the Father came, changed everything.
That is why the bible says if the Prince of this world had known all of this he would not have crucified the Lord of Glory.
This is why we rejoice in God and Christ Jesus. Do you rejoice? Or is your life dull?
Is your life full of uncertainty? Do you just sit and wonder if you will make it into the Kingdom? That is not the life God had envisioned for you.
And if you do not know now, guess what, you missed the boat.
There is still time to repent from your self righteousness and submit to Jesus Christ. Let Him be your payment for sin. But you must come in humility and faith.