08 Jun 16
Originally posted by KellyJayHave you produced any references or discussed it? You quoted this: Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Are we in agreement that salvation begins in this life time?
I see the discussion is still going on about the details, but the timing of the beginning does
it start in this life time or the next?
Where in that passage supports your claim that salvation begins in this lifetime?
First you need to define what you mean by salvation. Salvation in its broadest sense started with the death of Christ on the cross. This is what Paul explained in detail, that saved mankind from the curse of death brought on by the sin of Adam.
I suspect you are not referring to that. You are referring to eternal life. If this is what you mean then Pauls teachings here are relevant:
Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. (Hebrews 10:35-39 KJV)
Paul is saying
- after you have done Gods will, you will receive eternal salvation.
- We have to wait for the return of Christ
- Anyone who does not wait patiently for Christ return and goes back to their evil ways will not get eternal life.
08 Jun 16
Originally posted by FMFI am not ashamed of the good news and actually I don't go from door to door handing out anything, your ignorance of what constitutes a public ministry is as deep and wide as your evident ignorance of the Bible despite the fact that you spent an alleged twenty years as a Christian.
If you have indeed tackled the OSAS Christians over their championing of 'faith alone' it must have been buried in some posts about something else, or something you have scarcely ever broached with them ~ aside from you talking rather self-righteously about how you yourself go door to door trying to give away free magazines, something you used to blow your own trumpet about, so to speak, with peculiar regularity.
08 Jun 16
Originally posted by KellyJay (OP)"At what point in time does salvation begin?" (OP)
I think the OSAS question should start here.
If salvation does not begin until judgment day than no one is saved now
in this life time.
If salvation begins in this life time, then question becomes why isn't it
OSAS?
If someone can pretend to be saved, or miss the mark completely than
that does not take away from someone who is saved in this life time.
Are there other choices?
So when does it begin?
At the moment an individual expresses faith [uncoerced audibly or inaudibly] alone in Christ alone
and receives the imputation of a human spirit, salvation and eternal life.
08 Jun 16
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI didn't spend 20 years as a Jehovah's Witness, that's for sure. And, as you once admitted to Proper Knob, you don't know for sure that you have converted or recruited even one single person to your organization in 20 years of your "public ministry".
I am not ashamed of the good news and actually I don't go from door to door handing out anything, your ignorance of what constitutes a public ministry is as deep and wide as your evident ignorance of the Bible despite the fact that you spent an alleged twenty years as a Christian.
Look, robbie, you can try to distance yourself from what you post by all means. It is your prerogative. But the only 'good works' I can recall you ever talking much about were either things OTHER people in your organization did around the world, and not you, on one hand, or you knocking on people's doors trying to offload those free magazines (you've mentioned them a few times) or whatever it is you have to do to avoid being declared 'deactivated' - or whatever the word is - by your "elders", on the other hand. Doesn't sound as "awesome" as you so often say it is.
Added to that is how you behave and interact with people here. So, don't worry, I've got a fairly clear picture of what you mean by "exercising faith" in so far as it relates to you and the persona you project in this environment.
Whether you believe I used to be a Christian - or whether you approve of my brand of Christianity as it was decades ago - is so utterly immaterial and yet you keep going on about it. Tell me, is the way you conduct yourself on this Spirituality Forum part of your "public ministry"?
08 Jun 16
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyDo you believe only Christians have "a human spirit"?
"At what point in time does salvation begin?" (OP) At the moment an individual expresses faith [uncoerced audibly or inaudibly] alone in Christ alone and receives the imputation of a human spirit, salvation and eternal life.
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyIm pretty sure that there are no references in the Bible to support your statement.
"At what point in time does salvation begin?" (OP)
At the moment an individual expresses faith [uncoerced audibly or inaudibly] alone in Christ alone
and receives the imputation of a human spirit, salvation and eternal life.
Mouth worship leads to eternal damnation, says Jesus Christ, and here is what Paul said as well...
... the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, (Romans 2:5-8 KJV)
God will render every many according to his deeds:
- those who live righteously get eternal life
- those who live unrighteously will feel the wrath of God
Read it for yourself
08 Jun 16
Originally posted by Rajk999I no longer look for your views because you find that being deceitful.
Have you produced any references or discussed it? You quoted this: Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Where in that passage supports your claim that salvation begins in this lifetime?
...[text shortened]... wait patiently for Christ return and goes back to their evil ways will not get eternal life.[/b]
Originally posted by josephwHow exactly does quoting the words of Jesus make ME a liar? When it is His words that fly in the face of your beliefs?
You're just a blithering lying troll. You make Jesus' death on the cross of no effect by your twisted conceptualization of the verses you quote.
Unless you can state categorically that you have stopped sinning and have obtained salvation by doing so you may as well shut your lying mouth. And if you do say you have stopped sinning and have attained salvation by doing so I will call you a liar again.
How exactly is your post in the least bit rational?
Any ideas why no Christians have admonished you for your "unchristian" behavior, but so many readily do so with rajk999?
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09 Jun 16
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI believe you are misunderstanding what Jesus said.
[b]Once a person decides to follow God, can he then sin? I am talking knowingly and unknowingly
Of course.
I know that continuing in the word will eventually lead to not sinning but I know there are 'slip ups' along the way. I don;t know if I believe we will ever be free from sinning while on earth
In John 8:31-35 says that His true d ...[text shortened]... Or do you believe that those who commit sin are both a "slave of sin" AND "free from...control"?[/b]
Yes, those who sin are slaves of sin, because sin has consequences.
This is confirmed in Romans 6.
When Jesus said he sets us free, it is from our present entanglement with sin, not permanently.
If one is to interpret your ideology the way you do, it would contradict scripture elsewhere.
All of man has inherited a sin nature. Man has a natural inclination to sin.
When someone is "born again", they have "seed" created in them and a new nature.
Some believe we then have two natures, the sin nature and the new nature continually at odds and warring in our minds.
This is the struggle Paul speaks of in Romans 6-8. We are commanded to make every effort to "renew" our minds and "put off" the old nature, but I do not believe we can totally achieve this until Christ returns and we finally get rid of the old nature altogether.
Every day we have to decide to walk by the spirit( the new nature) or give in to the sinful nature. This is a moment by moment decision. We can feed the mind the things of the world or the word of God.
Another camp, believes the sin nature is done away with when we are born again but the mind is still "programmed" to sin. Either way it is a constant struggle "to put off" the old and "put on" the new.
This is why we desperately need to renew our minds by reading scripture daily and obeying what it says.
We also need to manifest the spirit in us, speaking in tongues, interpret, prophecy, discerning of spirits, word of knowledge, word of wisdom, faith, miracles and healing.
That is what walking in the spirit is all about.
On our best day we will still sin, but thank God for His word, his forgiveness.
1 John 1:8-10
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.
NKJV
09 Jun 16
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999
Have you produced any references or discussed it? You quoted this: Rom 8:23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Where in that passage supports your claim that salvation begins in this lifetime?
...[text shortened]... wait patiently for Christ return and goes back to their evil ways will not get eternal life.[/b]
09 Jun 16
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneOuch you busted again thinkofone, throw away your thin halo like a frisbee and fess up!
How exactly does quoting the words of Jesus make ME a liar? When it is His words that fly in the face of your beliefs?
How exactly is your post in the least bit rational?
Any ideas why no Christians have admonished you for your "unchristian" behavior, but so many readily do so with rajk999?
09 Jun 16
NIV Romans 8
18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19 For the creation waits in eager expectation for the children of God to be revealed.
I believe the children of God as they are awaiting judgment day are going through this
present suffering and in the end God will be glorified.