Atheists: things ticking you off about religions:

Originally posted by sonhouse
There is a bit of a plot problem with that scenerio: a god knowing all, knowing the past, present and future of all things would not find it neccessary to give mankind tests it knows in advance will pass or fail, like the garden of eden apple story or Ab killing his son to prove to god he is loyal and so forth, or the flood story where all the land animals ...[text shortened]... out thinking of the actual power of a real god, only what their imaginations could come up with.

As I pointed out before, we are living in the *now* that tiny piece of time whose leading
edge is the same as it trailing edge. God is not limited to that! We see things from a point
by point perspective to the point we fail to even imagine what all of the universe looks like
at single point of time in an universal now it is to much for us.

God is not limited to that and if His goal is to ensure our choices are our choices I don't
believe anyone who could do that, but God.

With this great God there isn't anything impossible from the creation of the universe in
whatever amount of time He choose to use to make it, and giving someone else the
ability to make a choice. These are but a couple of reasons why He is worthy to be
praised.

With respect you are the only one of us who admits to makng up things god can and
cannot do.

Originally posted by KellyJay
As I pointed out before, we are living in the *now* that tiny piece of time whose leading
edge is the same as it trailing edge. God is not limited to that! We see things from a point
by point perspective to the point we fail to even imagine what all of the universe looks like
at single point of time in an universal now it is to much for us.

God is not ...[text shortened]...

With respect you are the only one of us who admits to makng up things god can and
cannot do.

With this great God there isn't anything impossible from the creation of the universe in
whatever amount of time He choose to use to make it, and giving someone else the
ability to make a choice. These are but a couple of reasons why He is worthy to be
praised.

Get ready to do your best dodging - Given your statement 'With this great God there isn't anything impossible ' can we conclude that God could have created a scenario in which man had all the attributes God required without going through all the pain and suffering?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]With this great God there isn't anything impossible from the creation of the universe in
whatever amount of time He choose to use to make it, and giving someone else the
ability to make a choice. These are but a couple of reasons why He is worthy to be
praised.

Get ready to do your best dodging - Given your statement 'With this great Go ...[text shortened]... which man had all the attributes God required without going through all the pain and suffering?[/b]

I believe He did create a scenario where we didn't have to go through all the pain and
suffering, and what we going through now is what happened when we instead choose
to live as we wanted no matter the cost.

Adding a little more, we still can avoid much of the pain and suffering we are going
through now by living lives filled with love, grace, and mercy.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I believe He did create a scenario where we didn't have to go through all the pain and
suffering, and what we going through now is what happened when we instead choose
to live as we wanted no matter the cost.

Adding a little more, we still can avoid much of the pain and suffering we are going
through now by living lives filled with love, grace, and mercy.

That is a cop out. The idea that we chose is anathema to the idea that your alleged god, pardon me, God, knows everything.
If it knew all that was to happen it would have seen that possibility as just that, like a history lesson on TV but an animation not the real thing, so you could imagine this God looking at trillions of possibilites and aiming destiny in such a way as to create that which it wanted without humanity getting all tortured and sick and the like.

That didn't happen so there is this distinct possibility no god was involved in ANYTHING Earthy, life happening on Earth due to the near infinite possible combinations of carbon atoms aligned with water, energy sources and fuel, trillions of quadrillions of little chemistry experiments going on simultaneously where some of them had to lead to life.

That is, to my mind, a lot more plausible than the man made bible god stories.

Originally posted by sonhouse
That is a cop out. The idea that we chose is anathema to the idea that your alleged god, pardon me, God, knows everything.
If it knew all that was to happen it would have seen that possibility as just that, like a history lesson on TV but an animation not the real thing, so you could imagine this God looking at trillions of possibilites and aiming destiny ...[text shortened]... lead to life.

That is, to my mind, a lot more plausible than the man made bible god stories.

You give someone the ability to choose and they make a choice that is on them. You want
to be able to complain about both ways this could go, either God forces us to make a choice
or we make a choice and God knew and allowed it.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I believe He did create a scenario where we didn't have to go through all the pain and
suffering, and what we going through now is what happened when we instead choose
to live as we wanted no matter the cost.

Adding a little more, we still can avoid much of the pain and suffering we are going
through now by living lives filled with love, grace, and mercy.

so you are saying god could not have created a better scenario in which man did not suffer?

when god sits outside of time looking at all the permutations seeing the beginning and end of all possible scenarios he could create. the one he choose was the best one..is this correct?

Originally posted by sonhouse
That is a cop out. The idea that we chose is anathema to the idea that your alleged god, pardon me, God, knows everything.
If it knew all that was to happen it would have seen that possibility as just that, like a history lesson on TV but an animation not the real thing, so you could imagine this God looking at trillions of possibilites and aiming destiny ...[text shortened]... lead to life.

That is, to my mind, a lot more plausible than the man made bible god stories.

You think the universe being strung together in such a way life could appear and be
sustained is more likely without a plan, purpose, or design than it happen with cause?

The plausible seems beyond me that everything would fall out just right for life to start
and maintain itself through time. Could you list some of the things on a grand scale that
had to be just right and a couple on a micro scale and tell us why you think it is very
plausible things just fell out they way they did?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
so you are saying god could not have created a better scenario in which man did not suffer?

when god sits outside of time looking at all the permutations seeing the beginning and end of all possible scenarios he could create. the one he choose was the best one..is this correct?

I'm saying God DID create such a scenario and we *Adam* made a choice.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
so you are saying god could not have created a better scenario in which man did not suffer?

when god sits outside of time looking at all the permutations seeing the beginning and end of all possible scenarios he could create. the one he choose was the best one..is this correct?

I'm also saying that if we lived out lives right now under these conditions we would limit
our grief in pain and suffering if we would only do it as we are called to by loving one
another, forgiving one another, and so on.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I'm saying God DID create such a scenario and we *Adam* made a choice.

I get what you are saying. I'm asking you if you think God was able to create a better version of man, one that had all the qualities of God required and didn't sin....are we the best that God could do?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
I get what you are saying. I'm asking you if you think God was able to create a better version of man, one that had all the qualities of God required and didn't sin....are we the best that God could do?

Queue God made man perfect but Adam &*#$ed it all up probably also with a reference to 'we' being somehow collectively responsible.

Originally posted by twhitehead
Queue God made man perfect but Adam &*#$ed it all up probably also with a reference to 'we' being somehow collectively responsible.

That so-called perfect man had no past and no future. It was a static man, perhaps immortal, a moving statue.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
I get what you are saying. I'm asking you if you think God was able to create a better version of man, one that had all the qualities of God required and didn't sin....are we the best that God could do?

A better version of man as apposed to the sinner he is now? That is to be the end goal
when we put aside this body for one that lasts forever. This life is pruning out those that
would reject God's kingdom and the way of life He has for us. Think about what is going
on now, we are in a world that people have the power to act as they see fit be that caring
for others or not, forgiving others or not, telling the truth or not. What type of people we
are is on full display, and on judgment day everything will be revealed showing what we are.

So since all of us fall short, all of us has said things we should not have, done things we
should not have, failed to act when we should have the entire race has been condemned.

Our recovery is God's forgiveness in Christ and the Life we receive from God.

Yet this is still just part of what is going on in my opinion we were not the only ones that
did rebel against God nor were we the first. There is a huge portion of the angelic host that
also rebelled against God. Judgment day will show evil for what it is, and I think the whole
of creation will see it for what it is and condemn it. I think also God will prove to the whole
creation why living a life of love is better than walking selfishly. I think this is very important
as once the rebellion occurred and God had those that rebelled cast out, those that did
not rebel no longer have to wonder who had it right, the one that didn't want God's rule
or those that remained faithful.

Originally posted by KellyJay
A better version of man as apposed to the sinner he is now? That is to be the end goal
when we put aside this body for one that lasts forever. This life is pruning out those that
would reject God's kingdom and the way of life He has for us. Think about what is going
on now, we are in a world that people have the power to act as they see fit be that carin ...[text shortened]... o wonder who had it right, the one that didn't want God's rule
or those that remained faithful.

What a lengthy post NOT answering the question.

Originally posted by KellyJay
A better version of man as apposed to the sinner he is now? That is to be the end goal
when we put aside this body for one that lasts forever. This life is pruning out those that
would reject God's kingdom and the way of life He has for us. Think about what is going
on now, we are in a world that people have the power to act as they see fit be that carin ...[text shortened]... o wonder who had it right, the one that didn't want God's rule
or those that remained faithful.

you are avoiding answering the question.

lets imagine god at the time of creation. god stands outside of time so he can see the beginning, middle and end of every possible thing he could possibly create. when he looks at every single permeation, every possible design for humanity.....we were the best ones, every other possible design was going to have a worse outcome than the design he went for......are we the best god could do?

simple question, can you answer it? if not why?