Believers, Non-Believers & Morality

Originally posted by @dj2becker
How do you determine whether the untruth was deliberate or not?

Depends on the scenario. You must surely have been in situations where you believed - or knew for sure - that someone was lying to you and in other situations where someone told you something untrue but you couldn't determine whether they were lying or not, right?

Originally posted by @fmf
Who said it is "impossible to know whether or not a lie was deliberate"? It can't have been me because a lie is a deliberate thing ~ so there is no "whether or not a lie was deliberate" thing. So, that - along with the rest of your question - doesn't make any sense to me. Ask it again in a coherent way.

If you disagree feel free to demonstrate how you would know whether or not a lie was deliberate.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
If you disagree feel free to demonstrate how you would know whether or not a lie was deliberate.

Disagree with what? I found your question in part incoherent and in part attempted sophistry. Did you not read my reply? Rephrase it. Or drop it, as you wish.

Originally posted by @fmf
Ghost of a Duke, on this thread, about this thread's topic, said he has no notion of divine law. This is a true statement. It means he does not believe in divine law. It does not mean he thinks the notion of divine law does not exist or that he doesn't know that there is such a thing as "divine law".

As for me, for example, I have no notion of "sin" because ...[text shortened]... at billions and billions of people do have a notion of "sin" and that it affects their morality?

You’re clinging to word games like a life preserver.

Having no notion of divine law does not mean one does not believe in divine law. It means one does not have a belief about it one way or the other (affirmative or negative.)

I don’t believe in man-made global warming. Does that mean I don’t have a notion about it? Does that mean I don’t know what the theory is?

You simply don’t understand the definition of “notion” and can’t properly use the word in a sentence.

Sad!

Originally posted by @fmf
Depends on the scenario. You must surely have been in situations where you believed - or knew for sure - that someone was lying to you and in other situations where someone told you something untrue but you couldn't determine whether they were lying or not, right?

The only way to my reckoning that you can know for sure that someone was lying is if you remove the 'deliberate' criteria.

How on earth could you possibly know for sure whether or not the lie was 'deliberate' if you are not a mind reader?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
The only way to my reckoning that you can know for sure that someone was lying is if you remove the 'deliberate' criteria.

A lie is a deliberate untruth. This conventional definition is unaffected by your personal need to define the word in a different way ~ apparently so that you are then able to deal with people who tell you things that are not true.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
How on earth could you possibly know for sure whether or not the lie was 'deliberate' if you are not a mind reader?

A "lie" is, by definition, deliberate. Aside from that, this question has nothing to do with the definition of the word "lie".

Originally posted by @romans1009
You’re clinging to word games like a life preserver.

Having no notion of divine law does not mean one does not believe in divine law. It means one does not have a belief about it one way or the other (affirmative or negative.)

I don’t believe in man-made global warming. Does that mean I don’t have a notion about it? Does that mean I don’t know what ...[text shortened]... n’t understand the definition of “notion” and can’t properly use the word in a sentence.

Sad!

Having no notion of divine law does not mean one does not believe in divine law.

Yes, it does. It really does. And more especially, it means exactly that when it is used in the way it was used on this thread, on page 1, after the OP that I wrote, and in answer to what dj2becker posted.

Originally posted by @fmf
A lie is a deliberate untruth. This conventional definition is unaffected by your personal need to define the word in a different way ~ apparently so that you are then able to deal with people who tell you things that are not true.

A lie is an untruth that misleads people. When people are mislead by an untruth they believe a lie regardless or whether the untruth was spoken deliberately or mistakenly. If your criteria were the only criteria by which something can be classified as a lie it would always be incorrect to say people believe a lie because it is impossible to know whether or not a lie was deliberate. We say people believe a lie. We don't ever say they believe a mistake. The mistake is yours and you are too proud to admit that you are wrong even if it is crystal clear that you are.

Originally posted by @fmf
A "lie" is, by definition, deliberate. Aside from that, this question has nothing to do with the definition of the word "lie".

A lie can be deliberate or unintentional. I have given you multiple definitions that verify this. You are welcome to ignore them and bury your head in the sand. Adios amigo.

Originally posted by @fmf
[b]Having no notion of divine law does not mean one does not believe in divine law.

Yes, it does. It really does. And more especially, it means exactly that when it is used in the way it was used on this thread, on page 1, after the OP that I wrote, and in answer to what dj2becker posted.[/b]

No it doesn’t. You don’t get to define words the way you want. If you don’t know the definition of a word, or have a hazy and uncertain idea of what the definition is, don’t just forge ahead and use it anyway. Look it up in a dictionary.

If it doesn’t suit the purpose for which you need it, find another word that does. That process is much less time consuming than using the word incorrectly and then spending more than 12 hours trying to defend the indefensible - and making a fool of yourself in the process.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
A lie is an untruth that misleads people. When people are mislead by an untruth they believe a lie regardless or whether the untruth was spoken deliberately or mistakenly. If your criteria were the only criteria by which something can be classified as a lie it would always be incorrect to say people believe a lie because it is impossible to know whether o ...[text shortened]... ours and you are too proud to admit that you are wrong even if it is crystal clear that you are.

A lie is, by definition, a deliberate untruth. An unintentional untruth is a mistake.

If your criteria were the only criteria by which something can be classified as a lie it would always be incorrect to say people believe a lie because it is impossible to know whether or not a lie was deliberate.

My "criteria" as you put it, happens to be the definition of "lie".

That you declare yourself here to find it "impossible to know" if someone is lying or not has absolutely zero impact on the meaning of the word "lie".

We say people believe a lie. We don't ever say they believe a mistake.

People say 'I believed what he said, but it turned out to be a mistake'. If someone else then chipped in to opine that he thought the untrue thing that had been said was said deliberately, he might say 'I also believed what he said, but I think he was lying.' The two estimations of the untrue statement are completely different. A "mistake" and a "lie" are not synonyms.

The mistake is yours and you are too proud to admit that you are wrong even if it is crystal clear that you are.

Two questions that come to mind:

Is your first language Afrikaans? If so, perhaps "lie" and "mistake" are exact synonyms in Afrikaans and your confusion here is a result of what is technically known as 'mother tongue interference'.

Secondly:

Were any restrictions placed on what reading matter you had access to and what you were permitted to read when you were growing up?

Originally posted by @romans1009
No it doesn’t. You don’t get to define words the way you want. If you don’t know the definition of a word, or have a hazy and uncertain idea of what the definition is, don’t just forge ahead and use it anyway. Look it up in a dictionary.

If it doesn’t suit the purpose for which you need it, find another word that does. That process is much less time c ...[text shortened]... than 12 hours trying to defend the indefensible - and making a fool of yourself in the process.

I don't think I have made a fool of myself.

Originally posted by @romans1009
Where you lied was in claiming you had no notion of divine law.

Either that or you didn’t understand the definition of “notion.”

Evidently your understanding of the noun 'notion' (a conception of or belief about something) is as erroneous as you understanding of how to use question marks when making a quotation.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
Can a lie be proven? Yes or No?

Yes, you tried this tactic when it was discovered you had created a 2nd account. Your ridiculous argument was that if you hadn't admitted your deception no one would have known, as if somehow that made you honest. (And which ignored the fact that you only admitted it after you had been exposed).