Believers, Non-Believers & Morality

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
You really need to learn to recognize when you have been checkmated. Why are you playing on?

Go back and analyze your lost position.

The irony here of course is that the atheist is actually the one who is in check mate when he is simultaneously arguing against moral absolutes while claiming that honesty is always a good thing.

Originally posted by @fmf
Be that as it may, but why on earth would I bother saying it if it weren't true?

Only you would know the answer to that.

Originally posted by @freakykbh
I like the way that you expressed that.
Very compact and hard to get under, but I think there might be at least one little edge to pry.

The first is very broad, maybe even far too sympathetically general to offer much, but...
Without the dogged efforts necessary to trot out all the utilities inherent to that two-headed motif expression of our individ ...[text shortened]... r this, albeit it's a bit lengthy, so it's a regrettable two-parter.
My apologies in advance...

Thanks. I am particularly formidable when I've had a good night's sleep.

Good luck finding that edge.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
The irony here of course is that the atheist is actually the one who is in check mate when he is simultaneously arguing against moral absolutes while claiming that honesty is always a good thing.

Honesty most certainly 'isn't' always a good thing. Where did you extract that from?!

As I have already discussed in the 'lying thread', there are occasions when honesty is not the best policy and where lying is justified (the obvious example being when a lie does more good than harm, preventing loss of life etc).

In most of my daily interactions, I strive to be honest, as this builds trust and makes life more pleasurable. But I am not adverse to telling a lie in situations as indicated above.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Thanks. I am particularly formidable when I've had a good night's sleep.

Good luck finding that edge.

PART I
(truly sorry for the verbosity... I'll shut up for awhile)

Otherwise, the utility of the lie is the other aspect which makes me imagine some wiggle room.
Our younger self found the utility an absolute treasure trove of extended life games... until we realized our coin was losing its luster, from what I remember of my younger self.
[Like BIG time.
Is what is: what can you do, right?]
Lies, left unchecked, destroy society.
Our younger self transforms (when we do it right) from a person needing a lesson in the necessity-that-isn’t-immediately-obvious/and-in-some-cases-not-at-all-obvious of not lying to not only understanding its imperativeness to our lives, but a demand of the same as though our very lives depended upon it.
We go from bristling at the lessons to thinking maybe they weren’t quite as strident as perhaps they ought to have been for maybe even more maximum results in our own lives.
We lose the lessons society has for us when society will not engage us--- which it will not when it deems us untrustworthy of handling anything as precious as communication.
Although the creative in us tries to--- and does, albeit temporarily--- figure out ways to just lie better, the final judge within doesn't ever let us into the heaven we're seeking, even in the lies.
Even in the good graces: they’re not really accepting us, they’re accepting that thing we showed them.

When we gradually wake up to the necessity of truth, it comes with the eventual realization that truth distinguishes itself--- or, better, is presented by all other factors--- as among the HIGHEST of the best of all valued values, and this realization has a way of hinting, encouraging us to develop some sense of humility in our approach, maybe, in light of the complete debacle of missing how stupidly horrible lies are to us.
Maybe.


In our ongoing exploration of that value: truth is superior to lie, it gradually occurs to us that if it's bad for me, maybe that 'bad for them' was the issue in the first place and the ‘bad for me’ part was not really much more than what I got for being stupid in the first place.
At some point, hopefully sooner instead of later, the light goes off and we extrapolate our own lying behavior, being lied to we come to know very quickly that it hurts when it’s against us and we are mortally embarrassed at the failure from us--- akin to a kindergartner soiling their pants after a three-year, um, streak of continence otherwise.
That *hit is staying with that poor kid way longer than it takes to clean up the mess.

That extrapolation of:
“Rules I Should Live By:
1. Only deal in truth, both with others and most especially myself”
widens further and further to extend to what appears to be a universal truth for a universal time: these rules are bringing everyone down, man!
Lie = bad.
Truth = good.
We all eventually hold the same sway. somehow.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
No need to ponder on something I have already answered. I value honesty. My atheism doesn't change that. You are hopelessly incorrect in your apparent assumption that without God honesty isn't important.

I 'logically' choose not to lie to the best of my ability. Why? Because I value honesty, both in myself and others. Without honesty, there isn ...[text shortened]... can value honesty, with or without God.



Edit. - In case you didn't spot it, 'checkmate!'

PART II

But there doesn't appear to be room for a duality, at least from this level or my angle, given that there is no reason to expect that the story of man wouldn't appear to follow, well, the story of man: born, develops, beats the crap out of himself, sees him doing it to himself one too many times and finally goes to war with himself and kicks his own [redacted] ass, once and for all.
This is the story that has transpired thus far, and it certainly seems as though an overwhelming amount of the stories we’re hearing these days find their echoes in ancient writings, archetypes and other guiding thoughts and doctrines would cover the last few stages of man’s story.
You can call that hope, I suppose, but it appears as though the story has us all wanting truth to reign, none of the other characterization an absolute necessary ingredient, more of an observation along the same lines.
We’re all working toward truth, shedding lies in the process--- not the other way around.

From the best of our liars---
[I'm no slouch, but a tip of the hat really, really needs to go to the ones who have fought to enslave us all these years.
I don't rank anywhere near this genius.
Seriously: these guys (and the occasional gal, but really, well, okay, good job, ladies!..) have been the tireless workers and deserve all the kudos we can throw their direction.
You really can't even be mad at being duped, either, when you think about how ridiculously light the silk-lined manacles have been on us: it takes something of a genius-genius-level and the type of iron will required to beat MJ-LBJ-Kobe in a “three-on-three contest and you have two toddlers both with questionable ball-skills as your teammates, for world domination and, oh, by the way, you’re playing against them at the peak of their physical prowess” and, of course, an all-universe creativity to continually capture people's attention away from, well, life, and I can't imagine it being as easy to accomplish as some purport, this being in charge thing.
These people are no joke]---
that guy named Corporate, the politicians who serve them, other bit players on the world scene in whatever branch of diversion, down to schleps like you and me and those bringing up the rear learning the same lesson: lying hurts me.
I’ve used it in pinch and it really helped, but overall, it ended up hurting.
A lot.
I don't like it, and I don't like me when I'm doing it--- most especially when I don't even know that I'm doing it, I am annoyed at me the most for allowing it to happen.

Much easier to get to that on a personal level, and it’s a pipe dream to think we’ll see such circumspection on much resembling a world scale, unless we change and realize our utter lack of need for nearly anything they offer.
So there is clearly some room to grow.
We don't see a world that will/can be recorded as a period in man's history where truth was what was honored more than anything else.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
No need to ponder on something I have already answered. I value honesty. My atheism doesn't change that. You are hopelessly incorrect in your apparent assumption that without God honesty isn't important.

I 'logically' choose not to lie to the best of my ability. Why? Because I value honesty, both in myself and others. Without honesty, there isn ...[text shortened]... can value honesty, with or without God.



Edit. - In case you didn't spot it, 'checkmate!'

PART III

Oddly, we see the potential for that vision now more than ever, understand what it would take, but, we have become conditioned to accepting lies from ourselves in addition to having been lied to all these years, it's as though we're in a conspiratorial state of self-controlled inertia, from without and from within.

And the job is SO big--- wildly bigger than we imagine, this committing to truth in all dealings, all expressions--- we are more content to scratch it up to 'well, it's somebody else's playground, and that somebody is way bigger, and way more resourced than I am, so... yeah, maybe later, maybe someone else, maybe some other time.'
It's ‘too big’ to fail, that world which also happens to not be dedicated to the pursuit of truth, nor to the highest values attainable.
Sounds like a revolution, but it’s funny to see what begins to present itself when we put truth at the helm, as the highest ideal.
Truth first doesn’t allow the lie to exist, once its presence is made known.
It’s clarifying in nearly every way possible, whereas lies obscure like, well, darkness.

The ‘too big’ to fail, the ‘too big’ to do anything about, is our[i/] lie, and the unfortunate part of it is the truth it contains: We can't say much to the world, since we're not really in a good position to be doling out advice.
So don’t.
We know we owe it to the truth to stop it the control the lie has on our planet, but what are going to do, as miserable as we ourselves are, upon closer inspection.
Who the hell am I, on pretty much [i]any standard?!?

If we’re not qualified to tell the world, we go tell it the biggest world we can, and if that means just me, well, then it’s just me.
Were we prisoners in an enemy’s camp, wouldn’t our first order of business be escape?
The fight for freedom is the fight of our soul, of conquering these disparate pulls in our collective mind and body, and, informed by all but ruled by none, put it all to good for the entire body.
Because that is the good thing to do.
The good that we are compelled to do, even when we don’t know that we are pushed thusly.

Instead, we think we can't do something about all of it, let that extrapolation come lapping back onto our shore, wash ourselves clean, a pass on account of the senselessness of assured and complete failure, which morphs quite handedly to complete inaction (or just enough to feel our portion of the debt pretty close to solid, or at least solid/close enough).
And yet we remain blind to our full debt toward the highest values attainable program, namely, our debt to our world to be its model--- it's gift, it's hero--- that we become hero, first by conquering ourselves!

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
No need to ponder on something I have already answered. I value honesty. My atheism doesn't change that. You are hopelessly incorrect in your apparent assumption that without God honesty isn't important.

I 'logically' choose not to lie to the best of my ability. Why? Because I value honesty, both in myself and others. Without honesty, there isn ...[text shortened]... can value honesty, with or without God.



Edit. - In case you didn't spot it, 'checkmate!'

PART IV
(very truly, honestly sorry for the verbosity...)

Being the hero who explores, dominates, controls, manages and cultivates as king of this paradise.
[I see you cleaning up your yard?
What's the worse that happens: I stay the same, or maybe get a little bit worse because I’m blind with petty jealousy or any other number of anger issues that have made life a rough go.
Or maybe, just maybe, I stand up a bit straighter and put forth a little more into my own yard.
Even if just slightly on account of competitiveness at first, but I begin to see the utility in a huge way and find a hobby--- a righteous distraction--- that dominates my life for the rest of it on the planet?
Who won in that scenario, you telling and doing the truth, me responding in kind?
And someone sees mine, does likewise, but better: younger.
Started with you.
Who doesn’t want that story?
That was all truth-dependent, not a lie to be found, and lies would have ruined it.
Except in the rear-view mirror, I suppose.
And, it goes without saying, that scenario only works if there are people with hope for the future, or simply: hope, just like it sounds.]

So I see it that we owe a debt to the good we seek, the good that we want enough to restrict ourselves to that path laid out for us, that, even if the world cannot be changed, I can and I will.
Because the good deserves it.
And when I give the good what it seems it is encouraging me to do, i.e., tell the truth, be respectful of people, order my life in order to be a blessing to my world and to my future me, with its positive reinforcement for such action, I get a cup literally overflowing in response.

In complete and stark contrast, the lie offers no such hope of anything resembling a better life, one which flourishes upon contact.
It offers a temporary excursion from the best life, at its best.
And yet, it’s not immediately obvious, the loss disguised as gain.

We despise the lie: it only works where it is given currency, whereas truth is its own currency.
Ironically, the only currency.

In society, a lie only works if there is an assumption of an underlying acceptance of a truth system.
If everyone lied, society ceases to exist on account of lack of any trade, any agreement, any aspects necessary for a large group of people to exist in the same geographical area for any length of time.

We pick truth because there is an assumption that it is good, but clearly not entirely on the beneficial merits of its utility--- although they are overwhelmingly superior to the benefits of any lie utility and easily could be selected merely on that basis--- in fact, we do it because the same thread of rightness that is in truth is in that higher rightness that is good.
We know it’s right.
There isn't anything like good.
Nothing at all, really.
The differences between lie and truth are so stark, so completely at odds with one another and see their impact in the world in such disparate and wildly off-scale ways, they can scarcely be considered two sides of the same coin.
They’re also not on the same seesaw, even were we to spot the lie all kinds of value-added weight just to register on the other side of truth.
In the scope of things, it’s almost impossible to list ‘lie’ as an also-ran.

Since I don't see lie as an alternative to the truth in a manner which can put them on equal footing, but rather, that truth is about which others can lie, its transcendent nature eliminates it from having a foil.

Originally posted by @ghost-of-a-duke
Honesty most certainly 'isn't' always a good thing. Where did you extract that from?!

As I have already discussed in the 'lying thread', there are occasions when honesty is not the best policy and where lying is justified (the obvious example being when a lie does more good than harm, preventing loss of life etc).

In most of my daily interacti ...[text shortened]... s life more pleasurable. But I am not adverse to telling a lie in situations as indicated above.

Would you agree that honesty is only the best policy when it suits your personal preference? Who decides when dishonesty is justified, if not you?

Originally posted by @dj2becker
Would you agree that honesty is only the best policy when it suits your personal preference? Who decides when dishonesty is justified, if not you?

You decide when dishonesty is justified on your part. Ghost of a Duke decides when dishonesty is justified on his part. I decide when dishonesty is justified on my part.

Originally posted by @fmf
You decide when dishonesty is justified on your part. Ghost of a Duke decides when dishonesty is justified on his part. I decide when dishonesty is justified on my part.

I think you are less likely to be dishonest in cases where you would benefit without causing harm or breaking trust when it is impossible for you to be caught, if you believed your dishonesty was violating divine law.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
I think you are less likely to be dishonest in cases where you would benefit without causing harm or breaking trust when it is impossible for you to be caught, if you believed your dishonesty was violating divine law.

I know you think that.

Originally posted by @dj2becker
Would you agree that honesty is only the best policy when it suits your personal preference? Who decides when dishonesty is justified, if not you?

Did you read my answer to this? Did you understand it? Do you agree with it?

Originally posted by @fmf
I know you think that.

Can you understand why it would be correct for me to think that?