04 Dec 18
@sonship saidWhen you said "I believe that during the time of the great tribulation, high-quality Christian books will be in greater demand" weren't you talking about books like those written by men like Watchmen Nee and Witness Lee. So, "one is the Bible" is merely a facetious answer. Can you name any "high-quality Christian books" whose content you disagree with? Or is your agreement with the doctrines propagated by a book an integral part of your criteria for what is "high-quality"?
@FMF
One is called the Bible which sometimes I have trouble with.
04 Dec 18
@sonship said"Woo" God?
It is not worthy forming divisions about. But do you wish for the Lord to return? Do you wish for Him to come and establish His kingdom on the earth?If you care then you should care that there be something to woo Him and give Him the incentive to rapture.
Rapture is a strategic victory in the spiritual warfare. You may have gotten the impression that rapture only means ge ...[text shortened]... 2[/b].
If you care for the winning of the spiritual warfare then you should care about rapture.
Give God an "incentive"?
04 Dec 18
@kellyjay saidSo you do not expect to be clamouring for books by Watchmen Nee and Witness Lee one day as sonship suggests?
I've read some years ago, but recall only a little about them. I'm not a fan of following
hard after someone else' experiences with the Lord. We can glean from them yes,
but why go to someone else when God wants us to learn from Him directly?
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Kelly notice that certain posters will hone in on things not related that much to spiritual life.
"Where did Elijah go?"
" Do you have to be a member of your group to be raptured?"
" Books? Which books will be in demand? Just your group's books?"
I consider these mostly "surface of the skin" issues. Do they really relate to the inner life of a Christian? Not really, At most they are pertaining to physical stuff leaving every Christian just the same in spirit and soul.
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KellyJay,
Yes, I did in passing mention some books. Yes, I did introduce a passing comment about books I think are under appreciated today. I am surprised, (yet not too surprised) that FMF, Dive have honed in on this with great emphasis.
But they could find something else to hone in on if it was not that.
To invalidate the ministry of the new covenant and its spiritual life, they will erect a strawman of sectarianism. They will distract from spiritual life by talking only about groups, their leaders (so to speak), their books, etc.
Understand also this. In these last days Satan the Devil will introduce more and more cults so that when God moves with His Spirit through the earth, people will say - "Aha, this ALSO is a cult!"
The Devil creates cults so that the truth will also be mistaken as a cult.
Understand his subtlety.
And go for spiritual life and truth in His pure word.
04 Dec 18
@sonship saidI just wonder who your audience is here. You claim certain things about books and certain writers and certain Christians and yet when asked about them you seem to suggest that what you said ~ or more particularly, questions about what you said ~ are somehow off-base. You appear to me ~ with assertions about Christians "clamouring" for certain books you approve of ~ to be merely promoting a particular brand of groupism here rather than "the inner life of a Christian". Just my penny's worth, that's all.
Kelly notice that certain posters will hone in on things not related that much to spiritual life.
"Where did Elijah go?"
" Do you have to be a member of your group to be raptured?"
" Books? Which books will be in demand? Just your group's books?"
I consider these mostly "surface of the skin" issues. Do they really relate to the inner life of a Christian? Not ...[text shortened]... most they are pertaining to physical stuff leaving every Christian just the same in spirit and soul.
04 Dec 18
@sonship saidsonship, you're sounding a bit like robbie carrobie here.
KellyJay,
Yes, I did in passing mention some books. Yes, I did introduce a passing comment about books I think are under appreciated today. I am surprised, (yet not too surprised) that FMF, Dive have honed in on this with great emphasis.
But they could find something else to hone in on if it was not that.
To invalidate the ministry of the new covenant and i ...[text shortened]... as a cult.
Understand his subtlety.
And go for spiritual life and truth in His pure word.
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04 Dec 18
1 edit
My understanding of this verse did change over the years.
"But be watchful at every time, beseeching that you would prevail to escape all these things which are about to happen and stand before the Son of Man." ( Luke 21:36)
At first I didn't think this exhortation was related to rapture. I thought that if the Christians prevail, eventually they will stand before the Son of Man when He comes back to the earth.
One day I changed my view. It surely could mean to be raptured and stand before the Son of Man in heaven to where we are raptured.
The Firstfruits in Revelation 14:1-5 are a group standing before the Son of Man in heaven just before the events of the tribulation (Rev. 14:6 - 13)
Since then I have suspected that to prevail and escape the coming things and instead stand before the Son of Man must mean ( or certainly cannot exclude) being taken off of the earth to stand before the Lord Jesus shortly before He descends with His overcoming saints.
04 Dec 18
@sonship saidI think my dogmatism may play a role in my reticence to examine a deeper look into some of the things you've said. That and I'm a slow learner.
SecondSon,
Here is a very concise explanation of the problem of rapture.
Some Bible students argued that the entire church is raptured pre-tribulation.
And they have their verses - good ones often.
Some other Bible students argued that the opposite was true. The entire church is raptured post-tribulation. They also have verses. Sometimes good ones.
Both sc ...[text shortened]... of rapture. But careful examination of the verses show that readiness and watchfulness are the key.
You could be correct, based on the scripture evidence you have provided. I'm meditating on them and considering the whole picture now. It could take some time to fully embrace those things that are new to me.
That, as you say, there is a differentiation between the first rapture and a subsequent rapture, is a tough one to see. I have only and always thought there was just the one, which took me years to understand was pre-millennial.
What verse do you know of the supports the idea of a rapture after the start of the tribulation period, and when in that period does it occur?
04 Dec 18
@kellyjay saidBut the Bible answers those questions, and it doesn't hurt to take a hard critical look at what it says.
The Rapture isn't worth arguing about.
I have seen arguments about pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and
one who claimed it was the sinners taken and the righteous left behind.
Bottom line it will not matter if you are not right with God today and God calls
you home before it happens.
Otherwise there's no growth, not that your concern has no merit though.
04 Dec 18
@sonship saidHe is coming back so today I want to be found following Him if He returns. Beyond that it doesn’t matter when to me.
@KellyJay
The Rapture isn't worth arguing about.
I have seen arguments about pre-tribulation, post-tribulation, mid-tribulation, and
It is not worthy forming divisions about. But do you wish for the Lord to return? Do you wish for Him to come and establish His kingdom on the earth?
If you care then you should care that there be something to woo H ...[text shortened]... 2[/b].
If you care for the winning of the spiritual warfare then you should care about rapture.
04 Dec 18
@sonship saidSonship, you are definitely past the milk stage. Some of this meat is difficult to digest, even though I've been consuming it for years.
@KellyJay
When we are saved, we are saved.
To be precise.
The New Testament says I was saved, I am being saved, and I will be saved.
The three aspects of being saved relate to the three parts of our being - spirit and soul and body.
To be saved involves regeneration in the spirit.
Then to be being saved involves [b]transform ...[text shortened]... an until the Lord says it is finished! [/quote]
We'll speak more on this perhaps latter. Thanks.
I know where you're coming from.
04 Dec 18
@divegeester saidThat's a silly thing to say. You're dead wrong about Matthew. You act as though because the passage uses metaphors that it isn't about anything real.
Still smarting from my instruction on Mathew I see.
It's as if you think eternal life is a metaphor for some undefinable ethereal reality in some fantasy la la land.
Eternal punishment and eternal life are real words about real things. Face it!
04 Dec 18
@secondson saidAs a matter of interest, if the punishment is destruction, and it is permanent, if the annihilation is irreversible, if that were to be what is real, would the term "eternal punishment" still be applicable and the metaphors still work?
Eternal punishment and eternal life are real words about real things. Face it!
04 Dec 18
@secondson saidI think, by its very nature, a metaphor stands in for or represents something that the person using it thinks is real. So, metaphors need to be interpreted in order to discern what it is that's being represented.
You act as though because the passage uses metaphors that it isn't about anything real.