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15 Aug 19
@kellyjay saidI stated that God overlooks sin in people He likes or has a purpose for. (Having already given the example of David who was favoured by God despite his sinful actions). - Despite this, you ask 'Just because or for a reason, or specific reasons?'
Jesus is!
And now your focus is on Jesus rather than David. So why bother asking what my reasons were if you're not interested in David?
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15 Aug 19
5 edits
Matthew 5
48“Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
Evidently jaywill believes that rather than being truly perfect, the "heavenly Father" has "degrees of perfection".
sonship believes that in eternity every single human being who has received Jesus will be perfected to the fullest extent of God's salvation.
"Therefore you shall be perfect even as your heavenly Father is perfect" is an exhortation but a PROPHECY as well.
Eventually, as conscience becomes clearer and clearer the sons of God are "transformed into the same image from glory to glory" It is a prophetic prediction as an exhortation. The disciples of Jesus WILL BE AS the perfect Father Who begot them as His sons.
"From glory to glory" indicates DEGREES. And though ThnkOfOne is a "red letter heretic" and does not like to refer to Paul's epistles, God didn't ask ToO's permission to include Paul's letters in the Bible.
Paul writes:
"And the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom.
But we all with unvieled face, beholding and reflecting like a mirror the glory of te Lord, are being TRANSFORMED into the same image FROM GLORY TO GLORY even as from the Lord Spirit." (2 cor. 3:17,18)
Who does the transformation work? "The Lord [Jesus Christ Who] is the Lord Spirit".
ThinkOfOne does not teach that there is "the Lord".
And ThinkOfOne does not teach the "the Lord is the Spirit".
His concealment of a DEAD AND GONE Jesus is euphemistically disguised in the nice sounding phrase "Jesus while He walked the earth". The proper translation is "Jesus who is dead and gone".
So the Lord Jesus who is "the Spirit" is the ONLY ONE who can perform the transforming work. We can cooperate by turning our heart to the indwelling Lord once He comes into us as "life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45) and gaze as it were upon Him.
The transformation is obviously in proportion to the enlightened conscience as far as departing from sinning goes. And that is by DEGREES - "From glory to glory to glory to glory". That is by successive degrees.
Is this a NEW thought invented by Paul? No? Jesus prayed that the saints would be PERFECTED. And PERFECTED indicates a process. Jesus said it while He walked the earth in John 17.
"And the glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one;
I in them, and You in Me, that they may be PERFECTED into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:22,23)
Beware of red letter heretics denying God while pontificating about cherry picked red letters in the Gospels.
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You have to understand what ThinkOfOne's coded language really means.
"Jesus while he walked the earth" really means Jesus is dead and gone
"Jesus while he walked the earth" means Most of the New Testament is myth
"Jesus while he walked the earth" means there is no God and no Son of God.
"Jesus while he walked the earth" means There is no resurrection.
All the referring to what Jesus said while He walked the earth really translates into - We are on our own. Humanism is the way.
Though challenged again and again by various posters ThinkOfOne doesn't admit to what "Jesus while he walked the earth" is really significant of. I think His atheism is so shrouded in a cloud of nebulous and ambiguous subjective existential doublespeak that he would probably say something like - "You're asking the wrong question."
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Ezekiel 33
13“When I say to the righteous he will surely live, and he so trusts in his righteousness that he commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds will be remembered; but in that same iniquity of his which he has committed he will die. 14“But when I say to the wicked, ‘You will surely die,’ and he turns from his sin and practices justice and righteousness, 15if a wicked man restores a pledge, pays back what he has taken by robbery, walks by the statutes which ensure life without committing iniquity, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 16“None of his sins that he has committed will be remembered against him. He has practiced justice and righteousness; he shall surely live.
The Ezekiel passage is not about eternal destinies. I don't think eternal destinies are at all a subject spoken to in this Old Testament book.
And in the New Testament book of Hebrews the writer does say that God is not unrighteous to FORGET their former righteous deeds. And Hebrews does deal with eternal destinies as well as dispensational disciplines.
For God is not unrighteous, so as to forget your work and the love which you have have shown toward His name in having ministered to the saints and in ministering still. (Heb. 6:10)
The audience is a group of eternally saved Jewish disciples of Jesus. It was probably written to Jews living in Jerusalem after the emerging of the new covenant "Christian" church.
They were eternally saved but were staggering under persecution. They were wavering and some were considering going BACK to Judaism and its animals sacrifices.
Paul does not say God will not remember their former deeds done in His name in faith. He says God is not unrighteous to FORGET them.
There is no contradiction. There is a certain scope to Ezekiel's writing. And there is a certain scope to the book of Hebrews which both have to be considered respectively.
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15 Aug 19
@chaney3 saidGod it appears uses imperfect vessels to carry out His perfect work.
Isn't Jesus contradicting God?
Look at David, Moses and Saul as examples. Not at all perfect, but chosen.
One should hope, as has been said, that God likes you or has a purpose for you.
Edit: even the disciples turned their backs on Jesus when it mattered.
On a personal note Chaney, and I hope something you will ponder on, if you only love the kind of people you personally want to love, then you are not loving God. To love God means loving everybody he loves,...and that's everybody.
15 Aug 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidHere is an interesting illustration of that principle
God it appears uses imperfect vessels to carry out His perfect work.
On a personal note Chaney, and I hope something you will ponder on, if you only love the kind of people you personally want to love, then you are not loving God. To love God means loving everybody he loves,...and that's everybody.
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. For if there come unto your assembly a man with a gold ring, in goodly apparel, and there come in also a poor man in vile raiment; And ye have respect to him that weareth the gay clothing, and say unto him, Sit thou here in a good place; and say to the poor, Stand thou there, or sit here under my footstool: Are ye not then partial in yourselves, and are become judges of evil thoughts? Hearken, my beloved brethren, Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him? But ye have despised the poor. Do not rich men oppress you, and draw you before the judgment seats? Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called? If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: But if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors. (James 2:1-9 KJV)
16 Aug 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWhat are your specific reasons?
I stated that God overlooks sin in people He likes or has a purpose for. (Having already given the example of David who was favoured by God despite his sinful actions). - Despite this, you ask 'Just because or for a reason, or specific reasons?'
And now your focus is on Jesus rather than David. So why bother asking what my reasons were if you're not interested in David?
16 Aug 19
@galveston75 saidAside from texts written ~ decades and decades after Jesus' death ~ by people who had new-religion-creating reasons to make people think that Jesus was descended from Abraham, based on what evidence do you claim Jesus was - indeed - descended from Abraham?
David was part of the lineage that came from Abraham who Jehovah promised that the Messiah would be from. David was forgiven by Jehovah (which is his right) under extraordinary circumstances, so that Jesus would still descend from Abraham.
16 Aug 19
@sonship saidThis is an amazing question:
This thread continues ThinkOfOne's question on arguably his favorite part of the New Testament (portions of John chapter 8).
Jesus says that His true disciples are made free from committing sin. How does that "say nothing 'about ceasing to sin'"? His disciples are made free from committing sin, but don't cease to sin? How does that work exactly?
Jesus says that His true disciples are made free from committing sin. How does that "say nothing 'about ceasing to sin'"? His disciples are made free from committing sin, but don't cease to sin? How does that work exactly?
Very amazing.
Wow.
I think it helps illustrate another point: it is impossible to not sin without actively recognizing Christ as one's savior and without the desire and yearning to repent.
This would feed into the usual argument about why Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation. Not in the sense that others who have never heard of Christ or who have heard only in the most limited of ways are not potentially provided for by grace that we do not yet know of, but in the sense that those who consciously reject Christ and want to be far from Him are in a state of committing sin.
It is only with proper acknowledgement of Christ that we are liberated from this sin that occurs above other sins, and it is only then that we can even have the formula for repentance.
16 Aug 19
2 edits
@philokalia saidIt might help if you understand the context. If you have a reasonable answer to the questions, then post them here. Thus far, G75, KJ and SS have come up with bupkis:
This is an amazing question:
Jesus says that His true disciples are made free from committing sin. How does that "say nothing 'about ceasing to sin'"? His disciples are made free from committing sin, but don't cease to sin? How does that work exactly?
Very amazing.
Wow.
I think it helps illustrate another point: [i]it is impossible to not sin w ...[text shortened]... that occurs above other sins, and it is only then that we can even have the formula for repentance.
G75: How does one cease to sin?
ToO: Jesus provided an overview here:
John 8
34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin.
31...“If you abide in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”
His true disciples abide in His word and the truth makes them free from committing sin.
G75: I agree with Kelly. That scripture says nothing 'about ceasing to sin.'
ToO: Jesus says that His true disciples are made free from committing sin. How does that "say nothing 'about ceasing to sin'"? His disciples are made free from committing sin, but don't cease to sin? How does that work exactly?
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16 Aug 19
@thinkofone saidIt works by you paying attention to questions and information given to you in this forum and in the bible. I asked you questions on the previous page which are pertinent to your particular brand of atheism and your pin-holed perspective on the bible.
ToO: Jesus says that His true disciples are made free from committing sin. How does that "say nothing 'about ceasing to sin'"? His disciples are made free from committing sin, but don't cease to sin? How does that work exactly?
16 Aug 19
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI think I misunderstood you completely I'm sorry to say. You'll have to lay it out, if you want to.
Do you understand why I referenced David?
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16 Aug 19
@kellyjay saidI put forward David as an example of God favouring someone who was far from sinless. (I'm sure you're familiar with the whole Bathsheba debacle). This was the grounds for my claim that God favours people he likes or has a purpose for and 'overlooks sin.' - He uses imperfect vessels to carry out his work.
I think I misunderstood you completely I'm sorry to say. You'll have to lay it out, if you want to.