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If I promise to give you a yes or no response, or whatever type you want, will you give me a yes or no response to my checkmate question?
I promise you to draw your attention to verses like Romans 10:9 if you have questions about your personal assurance of salvation.
I do not promise to usurp God's place and conduct the last judgment here and now on anyone.
I promise not to chase the moving goalpost of a leading question like "Did you stop beating your wife yet?"
The whole matter is irrelevant to the reliable interpretation that non-existence is probably NOT meant by eternal punishment.
If that were the case then Jesus would not say of Judas the son of perdition that it would have been good for him had he never been born (Mark 14:21) - ie. NON-EXISTENT.
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Another point Divegeester.
We have a disagreements about the way to INTERPRET certain Bible passages. Have I attacked your person for you having a difference of interpretation on some passages?
Do I usually reinforce these points of difference of interpretation with remarks about the inferior moral character on your part? I think I usually stick to the sense of the words of the Bible as to where the more likely interpretation should be.
For instance, on the matter of your belief in Annihilation, have I used that interpretation of yours to degrade, denigrate your character ?
It seems to me in the past I told you some respected evangelical scholars do not agree with some aspects about conscious everlasting punishment.
It seems to me that I tend to make the discussion about the text. Whereas you follow through with emotional accusations of me being a SADIST or my Savior God being one.
A very large portion of your disagreement seems always packaged as ad hom or emotional name calling.
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Yes you have attacked my person. I don’t keep records of it so don’t ask me to produce it. I don’t care about it.
Let's be honest about this. Over the last say, um six years, probably I did say some hurtful things to your pride.
I bet every one of them was PROVOKED by YOU FIRST.
In fact, you can go get ANY exchange between us from years gone by which has offending words from me in them. And I'll say this:
DUDE, LOOK carefully at what YOU SAID to ME first. Take into account what YOU first said in PROVOCATION.
See? That's the problem with a couple of you guys.
You want to refer to others labored on explanations as mumbo jumbo, worthless, and other diminutive and insulting cracks off the cuff. But when we balance out the scale with some select words towards you ... you howl as though wronged and PICKED ON in every way.
Glass jaw - that's what that is.
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I don’t get drawn into wider “text” arguments
Why not ? Pre-tell, that's where the ISSUE usually lies. What is meant by these words in consideration of the whole scope of the plenary word of God in Scriptures.
You say "sonship, burned up chaff is just metaphor."
Okay. so is "gathering His wheat into His barn" metaphor.
In the larger context, is it a metaphor for something rather fearful "burn up the chaff" or is it something rather innocuous, like, say, pass into NON-EXISTENCE ?
Where is the greater likelihood of a proper interpretation?
with you over eternal suffering because the doctrine of death that it is fail at fundamental levels of basic morality, logical coherence and the nature of God.
But this teaching came out of the mouth of JESUS CHRIST.
Your BLAME is MISDIRECTED. And I think it is wrong because it is not punishment from anyone else. It is punishment from the ultimate truth, ultimate goodness, rightness,
FEAR HIM ... says Jesus. This UNIQUE One with a unique AUTHORITY that no one can reject in the end.
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( I do not mean for a microsecond that a doctrine of punishment everlasting could not be ABUSED. It has.
You cannot fight heresy though with another heresy. )
The road to the end is long and filled with longsuffering and mercy. But in the final end ... if you reject the Ultimate Governor, you must lose.
Jesus's words - [paraphrased] amount to - "THIS ONE is different. THIS ONE is unique among all other beings. I'll tell you who to be concerned about friends. THIS ONE. THIS ULTIMATE God. Not the guy who can just kill you and that's it. This ONE has a power and an authority reaching beyond what all other beings can do. "
Read it AGAIN and don't misdirect your blame onto others.
"And I say to you My friends, Do not fear those who kill the body and afterwards have nothing more that they can do.
But I will show you whom you should fear; fear Him who, after killing has authority to cast into Gehenna; yes, I TELL YOU, FEAR THIS ONE." ( Luke 12:4-5) [ my emphasis]
I have to go back and consider the burning chaff and the wheat gathered into His barn (Matt. 3:12) in light of these words too.
" ... He will baptize you in the Holy Spirit and fire,
Whose winnowing fan is in His hand. And He will thoroughly cleanse His threshing floor and will gather His wheat into the barn,
but the chaff He will burn up with unquenchable fire." (Matt. 3:11c,12)
I have provided sufficient solid scriptural basis for this in thet past, in fact a wrote a lengthy OP on it a few months ago if you care to look back. I cited 7 reasons why the doctrine of eternal suffering is wrong.
If you're so convinced then so be it.
Everyone of us lovers of Christ and students of God's word, are not convinced of your reasons on that matter.
I don't have the link and didn't see the thread.
So I would first read through to eliminate strawman arguments. Then I would consider your better arguments.
Now if you reply that I am being dishonest and I know that I saw it, then EXPECT probably some words in return which tell you where to get off !
I don't recall ever seeing N Reasons from you as a thread WHY you reject eternal punishment.
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Frankly I tire of your vanity and your twisted moral perspectives on topics like suicide, righteousness, truth, mercy, the lost, aliens on planets and all that other flotsam and jestsum that trails along with your version of Christianity.
If you get tired of me then stop chasing me around to urge me to "Talk about it with me again! Talk about it with me again!"
You don't even have to read any post of mine.
I get tired of you too.
For the sake of some who might be wrongly impressed with your strutting, boasting, victory laps, and checkmate questions which amount to bluster, I might just reply, whether you're tired or not.
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@sonship saidNot to his pride, to his person.
Let's be honest about this. Over the last say, um six years, probably I did say some hurtful things to your pride.
I bet every one of them was PROVOKED by YOU FIRST.
In fact, you can go get ANY exchange between us from years gone by which has offending words from me in them. And I'll say this:
DUDE, LOOK carefully at what YOU SAID to ME first. Take into accoun ...[text shortened]... ou ... you howl as though wronged and PICKED ON in every way.
Glass jaw - that's what that is.
There's a difference.
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@Ghost-of-a-Duke
Like some others here I occasionally lose it.
By the way, I have a heavenly bone to pick with you.
Something said to me the other night.
" You don't have to apologize for saying Jesus Christ's death on our behalf has made suicide obsolete."
Maybe a little sensational sounding (like many thread titles are). I don't retract that because I think it is true.
He who gave up His own Son for us, HOW shall He not with Him freely give us all things? (that is all things necessary for Him working His purpose in our souls).
"What then shall we say to these things?
If God is for us, who can be against us? " (Rom. 8:31)
That's what I need to tell people. Let's look at the rest of it.
"Indeed, He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him up for us all, how shall He not also with Him freely give us all things? (See Rom. 8:31,32)
Oh depressed and suffering soul, if God be for us... WHO can be against us? GOD is for us.
If He gave to us eternal life in Christ, how can He not supply us with whatever we need to live?
Soul have you sunk low? Have you sunk to the deepest pit ?
Are you far far below me and other men and women in trial and trouble?
Receive Jesus Christ. If God would give up His own Son for you, how will He not give you all that you need to live unto Him? By granting you eternity He has sealed that ALL ELSE needed for this cause He has ready for your supply.
I'll continue these thoughts on the thread appropriate to Christ's death FOR us, in many ways.