Spirituality
13 Aug 13
30 Aug 13
1 edit
Originally posted by SuzianneI think I got my point across. I have to go play some games with my grandson now. That is more important. Adios.
I will set aside your blasphemy and tell you that no, I do not believe that happened. Now ask me another foolish, nonsensical question so you can blaspheme some more.
The Instructor
30 Aug 13
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Originally posted by SuzianneAre you really saying that other religions do not make claims to have witnessed miracles performed by a holy figure?
I will take it that you would accept a witness' testimony as admissible evidence, since every court that I know of would consider it thus.
Therefore, we have the four Gospels, as presented in the New Testament as being admissible witness testimony of miracles performed by the Son of God, one Jesus of Nazareth.
I did not ask you what might count as evidence. I asked you what evidence you could provide that could not, with equal validity, be claimed by other religions.
The Gospel miracles could be made-up stories. As could the claims of miracles in other faiths. I asked you for evidence that could distinguish between the true stories and the false ones.
30 Aug 13
Originally posted by RJHindsSo you have some claims and a religious artefact.
Jesus claimed to be the sinless son of man and the only begotten Son of God. Jesus claimed to be the way, the truth, and the life and then died and rose from the dead to prove His claim. We have the Shroud of Turin as evidence.
Muhammad claimed to be a sinful man and a prophet of Allah. Muhammad died and stayed dead as proof of his claim.
I accept the ...[text shortened]... ponsibility to seek it out. It will not be given to you on a silver platter.
The Instructor
Not exactly different from many other religions, is it?
30 Aug 13
Originally posted by RJHindsThere are plenty of miracles in other religions way more impressive than this. I mean, some even claim to have seen people raised from the dead.
A rock that fell from the sky does not compare with the miracle image on the Shroud of Turin as real evidence of a miracle.
The Instructor
01 Sep 13
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Originally posted by SuzianneThank you for that considered response.
I was going to say that you're putting the cart before the horse here. But what is more true is that you are putting the cart behind the horse, but you're failing to hitch them up.
The point of free will and of my idea that there cannot be proof of God is to make man's choice bias-free and clearly his own choice. Just like you are not provided t only possible, but meaningful. Why would He screw it all up at the last minute?
Essentially, I think you are saying that to get to heaven, you must believe in the existence of God, without being provided any reason to, and certainly without being provided any reason to believe in this version of God rather that that one. This means that is purely chance which god you believe in: if you are born and raised in India, you would probably believe in the numerous gods of Hinduism; in Israel, the Jewish god; in Palestine, the Islamic God; in Japan no gods but some form of reincarnation.
This means that such a choice is most definitely not made of your own free will.
A better way would be to say to the entire world, Here I am. Here is rock-solid evidence of my existence and nature. This is what I have done throughout history and these are my rules. If you feel you can love and worship me for all of eternity, then I will welcome you into heaven. If not, then I offer you simple oblivion (or maybe some alternate afterlife where you can make your own way amongst all the others who did not feel like they could love and worship me)
If your God really is as described in the bible, then I'm sure there would be plenty of people opting for the alternative. And that really would be a free choice.
--- Penguin.
02 Sep 13
Originally posted by PenguinFrom your ignorant statement, I suspect that you have never read the entire Holy Bible.
Thank you for that considered response.
Essentially, I think you are saying that to get to heaven, you must believe in the existence of God, without being provided any reason to, and certainly without being provided any reason to believe in this version of God rather that that one. This means that is purely chance which god you believe in: if you are born ...[text shortened]... ople opting for the alternative. And [b]that really would be a free choice.
--- Penguin.[/b]
The Instructor
02 Sep 13
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Originally posted by Rank outsiderThere is a foot print through time that validates scripture, the Bible itself
Are you really saying that other religions do not make claims to have witnessed miracles performed by a holy figure?
I did not ask you what might count as evidence. I asked you what evidence you could provide that could not, with equal validity, be claimed by other religions.
The Gospel miracles could be made-up stories. As could the claims of ...[text shortened]... s. I asked you for evidence that could distinguish between the true stories and the false ones.
is such a one. It isn't a book that was written in one sitting by one source
but through time I believe 1500 years from the first to the last book was
the time it took for each book to be written. They all refer to our contact
with a single God, in addition to that the history we see the result with the
people of Israel which backs up what was written. You don't see that with
many of the others religions of the world, Mormons for example though the
claim is there that their books were from different sources they all came to
light through one guy at one time.
The results of all the promises in scripture point to God reaching to man
through the Word of God, Jesus Christ. The result of that event Christ
becoming a man, and living the life he did, and laying down His life and
being raised from the dead, then on top of that God's Spirit entering into
the lives of people who come to God also is unique in the universe.
You have any other religion in the world where we are not trying to earn
our way to God by working for it, or being good enough? What Christ has
done was win the way for us to come to God through Him,, as He is our
Righteousness though Him we can enter into God's kingdom, He is the
Way, the Truth, and the Life and takes an active roll in our lives as we live
our lives out in the here and now.
I can only tell you that in my life, when I came to God through Jesus my
life was changed forever for the good. He brought me out of a lot of
darkness, and is still active in my life helping me over coming that
which would ruin my life.
Kelly
02 Sep 13
Originally posted by Penguin"Essentially, I think you are saying that to get to heaven, you must believe in the existence of God, without being provided any reason to, and certainly without being provided any reason to believe in this version of God rather that that one."
Thank you for that considered response.
Essentially, I think you are saying that to get to heaven, you must believe in the existence of God, without being provided any reason to, and certainly without being provided any reason to believe in this version of God rather that that one. This means that is purely chance which god you believe in: if you are born ...[text shortened]... ople opting for the alternative. And [b]that really would be a free choice.
--- Penguin.[/b]
More complex than that, "James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder."
Right standing with God is on God's terms, the way has been won for us
by Christ. We were created to have this relationship with God it was broken
due to sin, our restoration is our natural state, but our current state has us
at odds with God.
Kelly
02 Sep 13
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Originally posted by KellyJayYes but non of that precludes him explicitly confirming his existence and confirming to the world, in an unambiguous and verifiable manner, which of the many and various god concepts is the real one. He clearly has not done this or there would be one version of God that was believed in vastly more than all the others put together.
"Essentially, I think you are saying that to get to heaven, you must believe in the existence of God, without being provided any reason to, and certainly without being provided any reason to believe in this version of God rather that that one."
More complex than that, "James 2:19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shud ur restoration is our natural state, but our current state has us
at odds with God.
Kelly
The O.P. asked what evidence would be sufficient and seeing as the claim of supernatural powers is an extra-ordinary one, I suggested evidence that would be similarly extra-ordinary but, I think, reasonably in line with the claim.
Doing so would not negate any free will we might have to worship, deride, or ignore him, so we could still make our choice. We would just be doing so in a more informed way, rather than just be guesswork.
--- Penguin.
02 Sep 13
Originally posted by PenguinFor God its very simple, He calls all of us, those that answer Him will and
Yes but non of that precludes him explicitly confirming his existence and confirming to the world, in an unambiguous and verifiable manner, which of the many and various god concepts is the real one. He clearly has not done this or there would be one version of God that was believed in vastly more than all the others put together.
The O.P. asked what evid ...[text shortened]... We would just be doing so in a more informed way, rather than just be guesswork.
--- Penguin.
those the reject Him don't. The scripture make it very clear, because of
sin and our hard heads, only a few will ever answer God's call. Many more
are going to die in their sins than those that come to God. The scripture
also teaches that when we stand before God and give an account for our
lives none of us will have an excuse, so God has given us all we require,
that does not mean that we will take God up on that or not.
Kelly
02 Sep 13
But you can only hear him calling if you already believe he exists. This is exactly the same as many other religions: those who already believe in the religion tend to hear confirming messages from their God. But they obviously are not because their God is not real whereas your God clearly is.
This is why we need the real God to make himself known, properly!
--- Penguin