Spirituality
01 Feb 10
07 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by twhiteheadits nonsense because it has nothing to do with the content, and it is the content we are interested in, whether it was wrote by a man or a woman.
It is natural for men to refer to God as "He" especially in a society where there is significant male domination. I was highlighting the fact that not one single Biblical writer was female and that could be the reason why God is never referred to as "She".
I do know that I have heard God referred to as "She" but never by a man.
Why is my pointing out If God is masculine does that make men superior to women because they are more like God?
God and all beings of a spiritual nature are sexless, it is expedient to attribute to God human characteristics to illustrate some quality, thus we read of 'the hand of God is generous', or 'the eyes of God are upon those to whom he has affection for', or that God is described as 'the Father', meaning life giver, a protector. Do you understand?, God does not have eyes, God does not have literal hands, God does not have genitalia.
When will you start to examine these things spiritually rather than to try to evaluate them merely through a materialistic and mundane lens?
08 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75I don't know, does it? doesn't it?
Where does the Bible say she was without sin?
I'm not the expert! just throwing the question out!
My (limited) understanding was that Mary was pure (hence doctrine of immaculate conception) and therefore chosen to be the mother for Jesus. I have nothing to back this up ... just what I thought I had heard!
08 Feb 10
Originally posted by wolfgang59That seems to be the belief of the Cathoilics. And I have no idea where that thought came from. Certianly not the Bible but then they believe alot that's not Bible based.
I don't know, does it? doesn't it?
I'm not the expert! just throwing the question out!
My (limited) understanding was that Mary was pure (hence doctrine of immaculate conception) and therefore chosen to be the mother for Jesus. I have nothing to back this up ... just what I thought I had heard!
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
08 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75It is certainly true that Catholics believe things never explicitly mentioned in the Bible (although this is different to saying they are not bible-based.) Revelation came through Jesus Christ and is recorded in the Scriptures and in the Church. So the ultimate test of a doctrine is not whether it can be found in Scripture but whether it accords with Scripture and has a clear historical origin. Catholics hold the immaculate conception on the basis of her being 'full of grace' (the Greek here literally means 'having been filled with grace', indicating that the fullness of her grace was bestowed on her before and continues into the present.) The early church recognised this as a statement of her freedom of sin (because grace is liberates the person from sin). Over time, the Church came to conclusion that this grace was conferred at the moment of conception. This is the origin of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
That seems to be the belief of the Cathoilics. And I have no idea where that thought came from. Certianly not the Bible but then they believe alot that's not Bible based.
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
08 Feb 10
Originally posted by twhiteheadFirstly, whether there are female writers of the Bible is not clear. Authorship is largely known for the books of the OT. There is however the book of Ruth and Judith which concern two Jewish women. There are also women prophets. In NT, Paul describes a number of women evangelists by name. So women are not totally absent from the Scriptures.
It is natural for men to refer to God as "He" especially in a society where there is significant male domination. I was highlighting the fact that not one single Biblical writer was female and that could be the reason why God is never referred to as "She".
I do know that I have heard God referred to as "She" but never by a man.
Why is my pointing out ...[text shortened]... If God is masculine does that make men superior to women because they are more like God?
Secondly, God does not have a gender at all. His nature is mysterious and there is a danger for anthropomorphizing Him. It is true that God is generally described as masculine but there are also some feminine images. God in the OT is sometimes called a 'womb' (this is an image picked up in scholastic theology too. St Bonaventure calls God the 'womb of being.) Jesus himself describes himself as a 'hen' wanting to protect her chicks under her wings. Hence the idea of a feminine God is not totally lacking in Scripture. Ultimately God's essence is unknown and mysterious and there is always the danger of over-emphasising God as a man.
Ultimately God's masculinity should be seen only in terms of His relation to us. God relates to mankind as a Father and sometimes as a husband (the husband of Israel), whereas mankind relates back as a bride (in Ephesians the Church is presented as the bride of Christ.) So God's masculinity is not a mark of His nature (which really would privilege men over women) but a mark of how God relates to mankind in a paternal and virile way.
09 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KThen if it's Bible based show me where the basis of this doctine comes from in the Bible. Not from Catholic dogma.
It is certainly true that Catholics believe things never explicitly mentioned in the Bible (although this is different to saying they are not bible-based.) Revelation came through Jesus Christ and is recorded in the Scriptures and in the Church. So the ultimate test of a doctrine is not whether it can be found in Scripture but whether it accords with Script ...[text shortened]... d at the moment of conception. This is the origin of the dogma of the Immaculate Conception.
And if this Grace or sinless state was bestowed on her before she became pregnent, what was she before?
And if she became blessed or sinless or whatever the Catholics call it now, why did Jesus never mention this to anyone? It seems if she was now in this blessed state and as I hear from the Catholics some highly honored position, even called the Holy Mother of God or Jesus, Jesus would have told someone then or at least one of the writters of the New Testiment would have make some passing mention of it. Don't you think?
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
09 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75And if this Grace or sinless state was bestowed on her before she became pregnent, what was she before?
Then if it's Bible based show me where the basis of this doctine comes from in the Bible. Not from Catholic dogma.
And if this Grace or sinless state was bestowed on her before she became pregnent, what was she before?
And if she became blessed or sinless or whatever the Catholics call it now, why did Jesus never mention this to anyone? It seems if ...[text shortened]... the writters of the New Testiment would have make some passing mention of it. Don't you think?
There was no 'before'. The Immaculate Conception means that she was always full of grace. She was always sinless. She did not become blessed; she always was blessed.
And if she became blessed or sinless or whatever the Catholics call it now, why did Jesus never mention this to anyone?
There are a lot of things Jesus never said or, rather, which are not recorded in the gospels. Again, this doctrine depends on both Scripture and tradition. Tradition has always maintained that Mary experienced God's grace in a special and unique way and this has brought the Church to the conclusion that she always had this grace and was always sinless.
I am not really interested in arguing this. The dispute here is not really about Mary but about the role of Scripture, tradition and the authority of the Christian Church to interpret and define revelation. These are not subjects we will find agreement on.
09 Feb 10
Originally posted by Rajk999Rajj..for the Cotholics to put her up on such high pedestal as they do and even worshipping her, it would seem her own Son would have said something about this to someone. Don't ya think?
Why do you always ask this question. Is it because you think all that Christ did and said is recorded in the Bible?
The reasons for questions is obvious I would think.
#1. I would like an awswer to their thoughts.
#2. Sometimes a question makes one think a little about their belief.
- Joined
- 15 Sep 04
- Moves
- 7051
09 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75As I said, the gospels do not record everything Jesus said. Hence, I look not only to the Scriptures but to the Church and the traditions of the Church. St Polycarp, who claimed to be the successor of John, said that the apostles quoted Jesus many times and clearly with words not explicitly in the gospels. Either the gospels are not complete records of Jesus' teachings (which seems plausible to me) or else Jesus spent most of his time in silence.
Rajj..for the Cotholics to put her up on such high pedestal as they do and even worshipping her, it would seem her own Son would have said something about this to someone. Don't ya think?
The reasons for questions is obvious I would think.
#1. I would like an awswer to their thoughts.
#2. Sometimes a question makes one think a little about their belief.
And Catholics do not worship Mary. We venerate her, that is, we reflect on her goodness; we meditate on her and keep her in our thoughts. We pray to her, not as if she were a God, but so that she may pray for us. This, however, is not worship. We do not offer up the Eucharist to her because sacrifice belongs exclusively to God. We do not ask her to forgive our sins nor anything else that belongs to God.
09 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75I can see no great need for Christ to bring up that point. As far as Mary is concerned I think its far more likely that God would choose a virtuous woman of the line of David, who was sinless as far as humans go.
Rajj..for the Cotholics to put her up on such high pedestal as they do and even worshipping her, it would seem her own Son would have said something about this to someone. Don't ya think?
The reasons for questions is obvious I would think.
#1. I would like an awswer to their thoughts.
#2. Sometimes a question makes one think a little about their belief.
09 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KI notice how carefully it seems your being in your explinations of Mary. Why is that?
As I said, the gospels do not record everything Jesus said. Hence, I look not only to the Scriptures but to the Church and the traditions of the Church. St Polycarp, who claimed to be the successor of John, said that the apostles quoted Jesus many times and clearly with words not explicitly in the gospels. Either the gospels are not complete records of Jesu ...[text shortened]... xclusively to God. We do not ask her to forgive our sins nor anything else that belongs to God.
Anyway did Jesus not say the only way to the Father is thru him? Why did Jesus not warn or explain to us that it would change later as in we would later be praying thru others? He made no exemptions for that command.
And as far as the "Tradition" of the Catholic church where would this scripture fit into that? Col 2:8.
09 Feb 10
I recall the story where Moses insisted on seeing God and at first God refused, but relented and placed him in the cleft of a rock so that he could see His hindquarters as He passed. The Bible also speaks of Moses being the only prophet God spoke to "face to face". I can't quote chapter and verse--I just remember those from Bible school. And of course the story of Jacob "wrestling" with God, and God "walking" in the Garden with Adam and Eve.
09 Feb 10
Originally posted by PinkFloydYour on the spot on these. These are mentioned in the bible. Interesting about Moses. He was the last or only prophet to be able to speak to God as face to face not through dreams or visions.
I recall the story where Moses insisted on seeing God and at first God refused, but relented and placed him in the cleft of a rock so that he could see His hindquarters as He passed. The Bible also speaks of Moses being the only prophet God spoke to "face to face". I can't quote chapter and verse--I just remember those from Bible school. And of course t ...[text shortened]... e story of Jacob "wrestling" with God, and God "walking" in the Garden with Adam and Eve.
Manny