Spirituality
01 Feb 10
10 Feb 10
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Originally posted by Conrau KYou have never heard of the cult of Mary? They look for Her in trees and statues of Her crying blood or what have you. I have to go off what the Bible says in regards to Mary and Joseph. The Bible is un-clear on if Joseph had another wife as a matter of fact the bible does not say much at all about Joseph. Is there any other historical sources on Joseph I doubt it. I just don't buy it. I agree not all Catholics worship Mary but some do. They use the word venerate. I had the Mexican women that I work with tell me that I could be killed for saying that the Virgin Mary was not a virgin by some. I was like wow really?? by the way Conrau K I mean no disrespect.
Again, I don't worship Mary. I have no idea where this comes from. If you entered a Catholic church I am sure you would find nothing controversial. Whether these brothers and sisters were consanguineous (that is, related by blood, actual half brothers and sisters) is not clear at all. Some have argued that Aramaic does not distinguish cousins from brothers; ...[text shortened]... rothers would include step-brothers (that is, the children of Joseph from a previous marriage.)
Manny
10 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by Conrau KYes maybe you personaly don't worship Mary or any of the other Saints but there are many Catholics that do. You get into some areas where the Latino's live and you'll see statues of Mary in all their front yards and in their houses. I had a landlord many years ago back in Texas and she had a bedroom that was totally dedicated to Mary. Nothing about Jesus, nothing about Jehovah, but all about Mary. A little alter or something that she got down on to say her prayers. And this is extremely common to see in that community.
Again, I don't worship Mary. I have no idea where this comes from. If you entered a Catholic church I am sure you would find nothing controversial. Whether these brothers and sisters were consanguineous (that is, related by blood, actual half brothers and sisters) is not clear at all. Some have argued that Aramaic does not distinguish cousins from brothers; ...[text shortened]... rothers would include step-brothers (that is, the children of Joseph from a previous marriage.)
So maybe you personally don't, but many in the Catholic church do. So where do they learn this practice? Would it be their church and from their priest? Do their Priest promote this or tell them not to?
And I also mean no disrespect to you at all. But I know and have known hundreds of people that were Catholic at one time. But with more education and serious study of the Bible they came to see how so many things the Catholics believe are in serious contradiction with Bible truths and are steeped in traditions that are not approved by God.
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10 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71You have never heard of the cult of Mary? They look for Her in trees and statues of Her crying blood or what have you.
You have never heard of the cult of Mary? They look for Her in trees and statues of Her crying blood or what have you. I have to go off what the Bible says in regards to Mary and Joseph. The Bible is un-clear on if Joseph had another wife as a matter of fact the bible does not say much at all about Joseph. Is there any other historical sources on Joseph I ...[text shortened]... ot a virgin by some. I was like wow really?? by the way Conrau K I mean no disrespect.
Manny
This is a different issue though. These people still do not worship Mary; no one regards her as a god. The question here is whether Mary appears to people or whether she can give signs through statues. Some Catholics do believe so -- but then, Catholics accept a lot of supernatural phenomena, stigmata, intercessory miracles, visitations and apparitions and even the sun changing color and dancing (such as at Lourdes.) So your problem is not about Mary but about the Catholic tendency to believe claims of the supernatural.
The Bible is un-clear on if Joseph had another wife as a matter of fact the bible does not say much at all about Joseph. Is there any other historical sources on Joseph I doubt it. I just don't buy it.
Well, no, there is no biblical evidence that Joseph had other children. The point however is that 'brothers and sisters' does not necessarily mean children of Mary: it could mean cousins, step-siblings or just be a roundabout way of saying family.
I agree not all Catholics worship Mary but some do. They use the word venerate. I had the Mexican women that I work with tell me that I could be killed for saying that the Virgin Mary was not a virgin by some. I was like wow really??
Yes, we do venerate Mary. In my experiences, this is not very common. The one time I ever saw, we just sang a Hail Mary in front of a statue of Mary. We do not worship the statue; we simply used it as a way of focusing our thoughts on Mary. I do not think that this violated the prohibitions on idolatry. As for your friend, her problem is not idolatry but superstition. God does not strike people dead on a regular basis.
by the way Conrau K I mean no disrespect.
I understand. If I were really that sensitive, I would have no place in this forum.
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10 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75Yes maybe you personaly don't worship Mary or any of the other Saints but there are many Catholics that do. You get into some areas where the Latino's live and you'll see statues of Mary in all their front yards and in their houses. I had a landlord many years ago back in Texas and she had a bedroom that was totally dedicated to Mary. Nothing about Jesus, nothing about Jehovah, but all about Mary. A little alter or something that she got down on to say her prayers. And this is extremely common to see in that community.
Yes maybe you personaly don't worship Mary or any of the other Saints but there are many Catholics that do. You get into some areas where the Latino's live and you'll see statues of Mary in all their front yards and in their houses. I had a landlord many years ago back in Texas and she had a bedroom that was totally dedicated to Mary. Nothing about Jesus ...[text shortened]... contradiction with Bible truths and are steeped in traditions that are not approved by God.
Yes, Latin America is notorious for its devotion to Mary, largely because of supposed apparitions like Our Lady of Guadalupe. This however does not involve any worship. You seem to think that any religious experience connected with another person has to be a form of idolatry. This is not how we see it. These statues are a means of guiding us in faith, nourishing our spirituality, reminding us of the example of Mary -- not worshiping Mary though.
So maybe you personally don't, but many in the Catholic church do. So where do they learn this practice? Would it be their church and from their priest? Do their Priest promote this or tell them not to?
I do not think that is true. No one worships Mary. The problem is that you really have no strict definition of what constitutes worship. Catholicism, while encouraging devotional practices towards Mary, never allows the worship of Mary. (And really, if you think we worship Mary, just wait till you see us worship the Eucharist.)
Actually, in regard to devotional practices, priests have little involvement. Lay people tend to pick these up all by themselves. They find a rosary and over time add new devotions. They pray before a statue all of their own accord. Marian devotion usually comes from a grass-roots level.
10 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KWell I see a couple problems with this. First if the church did not allow idols of any kind in the church to begin with, which the Bible completely forbids, then there would be none for some to admire too much and give their complete attention to God, and then if ones are maybe overdoing what they should be with idols that represent humans such as Mary, then why doesn't the church correct the problem?
[b]Yes maybe you personaly don't worship Mary or any of the other Saints but there are many Catholics that do. You get into some areas where the Latino's live and you'll see statues of Mary in all their front yards and in their houses. I had a landlord many years ago back in Texas and she had a bedroom that was totally dedicated to Mary. Nothing about Jesus ...[text shortened]... re a statue all of their own accord. Marian devotion usually comes from a grass-roots level.
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11 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75Firstly, as I have said before, the use of statues is not in itself idolatry. Idolatry depends on the disposition of the worshiper. If a worshiper starts to worship the statue and perform acts, like sacrifice or oblation, which belong only to God, then idolatry is being committed. Simply having a statue is not in itself idolatrous. It is also possible to be idolatrous without a statue, when people put material possession above God for example.
Well I see a couple problems with this. First if the church did not allow idols of any kind in the church to begin with, which the Bible completely forbids, then there would be none for some to admire too much and give their complete attention to God, and then if ones are maybe overdoing what they should be with idols that represent humans such as Mary, then why doesn't the church correct the problem?
Secondly, the use of statues does not distract a person's full attention to God. Meditating on Mary, her goodness and the abundance of grace granted to her, should lead a person to reflect on God's own holiness and goodness. Marian devotion is not a distraction from God but a helpful aid to contemplate God. If she really were a distraction, then surely the evangelists would not have written about her?
Thirdly, just because Marian devotion usually springs up around lay people without the initiative of priests does not mean it is a problem. The Church is not just priests and bishops but also lay people and lay people can be moved by the Holy Spirit just as much as priests. Sometimes bishops have had to intervene. Recently in a place called Medjugorje there has been a lot of controversy about alleged apparitions of Mary and the bishop has had to intervene and forbid certain cults. A similar event happened last year at Knock.
11 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KYou do remember the Ten Commandments I'm sure. Was this not one of the first set of laws that were given to ones who loved God? Was not one of the commandments to "not make" a carved image of anykind?
Firstly, as I have said before, the use of statues is not in itself idolatry. Idolatry depends on the disposition of the worshiper. If a worshiper starts to worship the statue and perform acts, like sacrifice or oblation, which belong only to God, then idolatry is being committed. Simply having a statue is not in itself idolatrous. It is also possible to be ...[text shortened]... op has had to intervene and forbid certain cults. A similar event happened last year at Knock.
And is not a carved image associated with other things "not to do" such as murder, fornicate, use fortune tellers or to be a liar, etc? Rev 21:8.
So if we go with the Catholics reasoning here and say, "well it's ok to have these images or idols as long as we don't really worship them but use them for whatever we need them for", isn't that saying "we can't kill but it's ok to wound people with a weapon and hope they don't die"? Or to say it's ok to to associate with a protitute but not go all the way? Or to tell all the white lies you want but not tell an outright lie?
Since all of these things are condemned by God, how can the Catholics somehow justify having idols and not just go ahead and do all the things God says not to do?
Ezek 7: 19-22 is a serious set of scriptures to all who have and use idols of any kind. This is a prophecy of the near future as it is referring to Jehovah's day of fury.
11 Feb 10
MARY is a familiar figure to most people who know anything about Christianity. The Scriptures relate that Almighty God particularly blessed this young woman by choosing her to be the mother of Jesus. Jesus’ birth was unique in that Mary was a virgin when she conceived him. Certain churches of Christendom have long reserved a special veneration for Mary. In 431 C.E., the Council of Ephesus proclaimed her “Mother of God,” and today many people are taught to pray to her.
Sincere worshippers know that they must address their prayers to the right person. What does the Bible teach in this regard? Should Christians pray to the Virgin Mary?
“Teach Us How to Pray”
The Gospel account of Luke records that one of Jesus’ disciples requested of him: “Lord, teach us how to pray.” In response, Jesus began: “Whenever you pray, say, ‘Father, let your name be sanctified.’” During his Sermon on the Mount, Jesus likewise instructed his followers to pray: “Our Father in the heavens, let your name be sanctified.”—Luke 11:1, 2; Matthew 6:9.
The first thing we learn, then, is that prayer, or worshipful address, should be directed to Jesus’ Father, who is Jehovah. Nowhere does the Bible authorize us to pray to anyone else. This is appropriate since, as Moses was told when he received the Ten Commandments, Jehovah is “a God exacting exclusive devotion.”—Exodus 20:5.
What About the Rosary?
Many who pray to Mary have been taught that blessings can be gained by the repetition of set formulas—prayers such as the Hail Mary, Our Father, and others. For Catholics, “the most widespread form of Marian devotion [that is, devotion to Mary] is without doubt the rosary,” says the book Symbols of Catholicism. The rosary is a religious exercise in honor of the Virgin Mary. The term also refers to the string of beads used to count prayers. “Five sets of ten beads, separated by an individual bead,” explains the same book, “are an invitation to fifty recitations of ‘Hail Mary’, five of ‘Our Father’, and five of ‘Glory be to the Father.’” Does God listen with favor to the devout recitation of the rosary?
Again, the instructions that Jesus gave to his disciples provide us with an authoritative answer. “When praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do,” he said, “for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words.” (Matthew 6:7) So Jesus specifically told his followers to avoid repeating set formulas in their prayers.
‘But didn’t Jesus teach his disciples to repeat the Our Father, which is part of the rosary?’ someone may ask. It is to be acknowledged that Jesus provided a model prayer, which has come to be known as the Our Father, or the Lord’s Prayer. We should note, however, that he did so immediately after giving the above warning against saying “the same things over and over again.” That Jesus did not intend for the model prayer to be repeated by rote is also evident from differences in his expressions in the two recorded instances in which he taught his disciples to pray. (Matthew 6:9-15; Luke 11:2-4) The ideas Jesus expressed on those occasions were similar, but his words were not the same. This leads us to the conclusion that Jesus was simply providing models or examples of how his followers can pray and of what they can appropriately pray for. Most important, his words indicated who should be the recipient of prayer.
Respect for Mary
The fact that the Scriptures do not teach Christians to pray to Mary in no way implies a lack of respect for the role she played in the outworking of God’s purposes. The blessings that come through her Son will be to the eternal benefit of all obedient mankind. “All generations will pronounce me happy,” Mary herself stated. And her cousin Elizabeth said that Mary was “blessed . . . among women.” Indeed, she was. It was a wonderful privilege for Mary to be chosen to bear the Messiah.—Luke 1:42, 48, 49.
However, Mary is not the only woman whom the Scriptures call blessed. Because of the actions that Jael took for the benefit of the ancient nation of Israel, she too was said to have been “most blessed among women.” (Judges 5:24) Faithful Jael, Mary, and many other godly women mentioned in the Bible are certainly worthy of our imitation—but not of our veneration.
Mary was a faithful follower of Jesus. She was present on various occasions during his earthly ministry and also at his death. After Jesus’ resurrection she was “persisting in prayer” with Jesus’ brothers. This gives us reason to believe that along with them she too was anointed with holy spirit at Pentecost 33 C.E. and thus shared the hope of being part of the bride class that will reign in heaven with Christ.—Matthew 19:28; Acts 1:14; 2:1-4; Revelation 21:2, 9.
None of this, though, authorizes us to pray to Mary. Heartfelt prayer is an essential part of worship, and Christians are encouraged to “persevere in prayer.” (Romans 12:12) However, all such worshipful devotion should be directed to Jehovah alone, through Jesus Christ.—Matthew 4:10; 1 Timothy 2:5.
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11 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75You do remember the Ten Commandments I'm sure. Was this not one of the first set of laws that were given to ones who loved God? Was not one of the commandments to "not make" a carved image of anykind?
You do remember the Ten Commandments I'm sure. Was this not one of the first set of laws that were given to ones who loved God? Was not one of the commandments to "not make" a carved image of anykind?
And is not a carved image associated with other things "not to do" such as murder, fornicate, use fortune tellers or to be a liar, etc? Rev 21:8.
So i ...[text shortened]... s is a prophecy of the near future as it is referring to Jehovah's day of fury.
I do not in any way question the Ten Commandments but you have surely misunderstood them if you think that a statue of Mary is idolatrous. The law concerning idolatrous is this:
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You shall not have other gods besides me.
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You shall not carve idols for yourselves in the shape of anything in the sky above or on the earth below or in the waters beneath the earth;
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you shall not bow down before them or worship them.
Exodus 20:3-5
God does not prohibit images of animals or birds or fish; in context, He prohibits us from considering them gods and bowing down and worshiping them. Again, you have to provide a definition of worship; at the present, it seems that any image used in a religious context is idolatrous. Catholics may have statues of Mary, as well as Jesus, the Holy Spirit, the saints and the apostles, but we do not worship any of these statues.
Since all of these things are condemned by God, how can the Catholics somehow justify having idols and not just go ahead and do all the things God says not to do?
Because we do not have idols and could never justify these. What we have are icons.
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11 Feb 10
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Originally posted by galveston75Does God listen with favor to the devout recitation of the rosary?
MARY is a familiar figure to most people who know anything about Christianity. The Scriptures relate that Almighty God particularly blessed this young woman by choosing her to be the mother of Jesus. Jesus’ birth was unique in that Mary was a virgin when she conceived him. Certain churches of Christendom have long reserved a special veneration for Mary. ...[text shortened]... devotion should be directed to Jehovah alone, through Jesus Christ.—Matthew 4:10; 1 Timothy 2:5.
Again, the instructions that Jesus gave to his disciples provide us with an authoritative answer. “When praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do,” he said, “for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words.” (Matthew 6:7) So Jesus specifically told his followers to avoid repeating set formulas in their prayers.
This is a crummy exegesis. Firstly, the fact is that Jesus himself uses repetitive prayers (Matthew 26 39-44). Three times he asks the Father to take his cup of suffering away from him. Secondly in Matthew 6:7, Jesus is specifically condemning pagans who believed that by reciting the list of divinities over and over, one might respond. This is not what the rosary entails. Thirdly, the specific word used here is 'battalogeo' which means 'to babble' not to 'say things over and over'; Jesus is condemning the pagans as they use empty phrases in order to invoke demons. Fourthly, the rosary is not about 'being heard' (which Jesus addresses in Matthew 6:7); it is about meditating on the life of Jesus. This article fails to acknowledge this -- the main point of the rosary is to reflect on the gospel stories. The rosary is primarily meditative.
11 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KEARLY religious customs and beliefs persist alongside the use of cell phones and the Internet in today’s Mexico. Over the centuries some customs of the Indians were mixed with Roman Catholicism. In fact, those customs still characterize the worship of Mexican Catholics.
[b]Does God listen with favor to the devout recitation of the rosary?
Again, the instructions that Jesus gave to his disciples provide us with an authoritative answer. “When praying, do not say the same things over and over again, just as the people of the nations do,” he said, “for they imagine they will get a hearing for their use of many words.” (Matth ...[text shortened]... t of the rosary is to reflect on the gospel stories. The rosary is primarily meditative.
Every year, for example, many people in Mexico go to cemeteries on November 2 to commemorate All Souls’ Day, also called the Day of the Dead. Flowers, food, and alcoholic beverages may be left there for deceased loved ones. Some even arrange for musical groups to play the songs their loved one enjoyed listening to. Many Catholics also build an altar in their home and may place a photograph of the dead loved one on it.
The Enciclopedia de México notes that certain practices in connection with the celebration of the dead seem “to preserve elements of the Indian ceremonies of the months ochpaniztli and teotleco, during which cempasúchil flowers and corn tamales were offered to the manes [souls of the dead] at a time of the year in which the harvest had just been gathered—at the end of October and the beginning of November.” As the encyclopedia notes, some of the customs reflect similar festivities held during pre-Hispanic times, which included a certain carnivallike spirit.
Religious Veneration
December 12 is a holiday for Mexican Catholics. On that date thousands of pilgrims from other states in Mexico converge on the church of the Virgin of Guadalupe located on the side of Tepeyac Hill in Mexico City. Many walk for days, praying along the way to the Virgin. Upon arrival they customarily enter the church on their knees (above) and offer up roses.
Images of the Virgin of Guadalupe are also found today in homes and apartment buildings as well as in bus stations and other public areas. The Virgin of Guadalupe has been given the titles “Mother of God” and “Little Dark-Skinned One of Tepeyac.” Since the 16th century, believers have often attributed acts of healing and other miracles to her.
Roots of the Devotion
The veneration of the feminine divinity, as well as other features of this holiday, date back to the worship of the Aztec god-mother Cihuacóatl, also called Tonantzin, meaning “Our Little Mother.” The work México a través de los siglos (Mexico Throughout the Centuries) says that this deity, as well as her son Huitzilopochtli, was brought by the early Aztecs to Tenochtitlán—formerly the capital of the Aztec Empire, now Mexico City.
The temple to Cihuacóatl, located on Tepeyac Hill, was destroyed by the Spaniards. Here, according to tradition, less than 40 years after Columbus set foot on the continent, the Virgin of Guadalupe appeared to a native Indian, Juan Diego. She reputedly asked that a sanctuary be built for her on the site.
Cihuacóatl was held in great veneration by the Aztecs. Reportedly, she had long, unbraided hair and wore a completely white dress. Her temple had an entrance so low that it was possible to enter only on one’s knees. Once inside, the worshipper would see her image surrounded by idols, making her appear to be “the mother . . . of the gods.”
The festival to Cihuacóatl included human sacrifices, dancing, and a parade of warriors decked out “with roses in their hands, around their necks, and on their heads.” These gifts were left at the top of the temple as offerings to Huitzilopochtli. Some Indians, including many from Guatemala, would walk over a thousand miles to the festival of Cihuacóatl.
Do Roots Matter?
The worship of the Catholic image of the Virgin of Guadalupe clearly has its roots in the rites of people who did not worship the true God of the Bible. (Psalm 83:18) Should this make any difference? Do the origins of a form of worship really matter?
The apostle Paul gave wise counsel in this regard, saying: “Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. . . . What harmony is there between Christ and Belial? Or what portion does a faithful person have with an unbeliever?” Paul also said: “Make sure of all things; hold fast to what is fine.”—2 Corinthians 6:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 5:21.
Such encouragement is also appropriate today. We should reflect on our worship of God and ask ourselves: ‘Does my form of worship closely adhere to the teachings of God’s Word, the Bible? Or are aspects of it rooted in a form of worship carried on by those who serve false gods?’ A person who desires to please Jehovah, the true God, will wisely seek the answers to such questions.
Again I ask...Why does the Catholic Church allow this?
12 Feb 10
I'm bowing out on this one. I do think thought that there is no reason to pray to Mary or focus attention on her. The Glory and Honor should go to God alone. I will leave it at that. I know there are Catholics that are very much Christian so I guess for me it's kinda of a side issue anyway. I think G75 will pursue it further but it's like arguing about the trinity. We will not convince you about Mary and We will not convince G75 about the trinity. Although healthy argument is good I guess to learn more and question our own held views.
Manny
12 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71Good comment Manny....
I'm bowing out on this one. I do think thought that there is no reason to pray to Mary or focus attention on her. The Glory and Honor should go to God alone. I will leave it at that. I know there are Catholics that are very much Christian so I guess for me it's kinda of a side issue anyway. I think G75 will pursue it further but it's like arguing about the ...[text shortened]... ough healthy argument is good I guess to learn more and question our own held views.
Manny
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13 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75I don't see any problem.
EARLY religious customs and beliefs persist alongside the use of cell phones and the Internet in today’s Mexico. Over the centuries some customs of the Indians were mixed with Roman Catholicism. In fact, those customs still characterize the worship of Mexican Catholics.
Every year, for example, many people in Mexico go to cemeteries on November 2 to co ...[text shortened]... y seek the answers to such questions.
Again I ask...Why does the Catholic Church allow this?
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13 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71Well, I think this is a forced dichotomy. Veneration of Mary is not something set up aside from God; Mary always leads the person to God. It is not a detraction from His glory and honor but an acknowledgment that God reveals His glory and grace through people. I think this quote from Acts is telling:
I'm bowing out on this one. I do think thought that there is no reason to pray to Mary or focus attention on her. The Glory and Honor should go to God alone. I will leave it at that. I know there are Catholics that are very much Christian so I guess for me it's kinda of a side issue anyway. I think G75 will pursue it further but it's like arguing about the ...[text shortened]... ough healthy argument is good I guess to learn more and question our own held views.
Manny
Thus they even carried the sick out into the streets and laid them on cots and mats so that when Peter came by, at least his shadow might fall on one or another of them.
Acts 5:15
If people gathered around a man like Peter just to be in his shadow, why can't similar honor be given to Mary who bore Jesus?