Spirituality
01 Feb 10
15 Feb 10
Originally posted by menace71According to Conrau none worship idols but we know differently. One of the main signs of those who have true worship of God would be their unity. It's obvious the Catholics don't qualify for that as I know for a fact that their beliefs and rituals are regonal and not all the same.
Some Catholics do worship idols some don't! Just like I said they run the gambit. I don't think the bible is whacky I think people who twist what it says and make up crazy doctrines that God never said are whacky. Sight exactly were the trinity has a pagan source? Sight it. Do you have archaeological evidence? Do you have historical evidence? JW's always ...[text shortened]... oser look at your own. Of course if you question they might dis-fellowship you.
Manny
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16 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75Actually, Galveston75, you are alone on this one. You have so far been unable to offer any reasonable proof that Catholics commit idolatry. We do have statues but we do not worship them; just as Moses was ordered to make statues but not worship them. We worship only God. We are unified in worship. We worship God in the Mass and in receiving Communion.
According to Conrau none worship idols but we know differently. One of the main signs of those who have true worship of God would be their unity. It's obvious the Catholics don't qualify for that as I know for a fact that their beliefs and rituals are regonal and not all the same.
Now some devotional practices vary depending on the region. This is not an indication of disunity. Devotion is always a private affair. Some people may want to focus on Mary as an example of humility and faith and so may practice the Rosary, wear the scapular or even crawl on their knees; others may want to meditate on St Francis and so profess vows as a Franciscan, wear the Tau or recite his prayers. This is not a sign of disunity but merely personal difference.
16 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KOk then.... But you do know that Mary and all the ones that are called saints are dead don't you? So they really can't help you to much. Just a thought.
Actually, Galveston75, you are alone on this one. You have so far been unable to offer any reasonable proof that Catholics commit idolatry. We do have statues but we do not worship them; just as Moses was ordered to make statues but not worship them. We worship only God. We are unified in worship. We worship God in the Mass and in receiving Communion.
N ...[text shortened]... ar the Tau or recite his prayers. This is not a sign of disunity but merely personal difference.
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16 Feb 10
1 edit
Originally posted by galveston75I know they are dead but this does not mean that they cannot pray on my behalf. Revelations clearly speaks about the prayers of saints:
Ok then.... But you do know that Mary and all the ones that are called saints are dead don't you? So they really can't help you to much. Just a thought.
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. Rev 5:8
3 And another angel came and stood before the altar, having a golden censer: and there was given to him much incense, that he should offer of the prayers of all saints, upon the golden altar which is before the throne of God. 4 And the smoke of the incense of the prayers of the saints ascended up before God from the hand of the angel.Rev 8:3-4
16 Feb 10
Originally posted by Conrau KIt says elders not saints. Who do the 24 elders represent?
I know they are dead but this does not mean that they cannot pray on my behalf. Revelations clearly speaks about the prayers of saints:
When he took it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each of the elders held a harp and gold bowls filled with incense, which are the prayers of the holy ones. Rev 5:8
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17 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75Let's just have a look at exactly what God condemned the Israelites for:
http://www.watchtower.org/e/20090201a/article_01.htm
7 And the Lord spoke to Moses, saying: Go, get you down: your people, which you have brought out of the land of Egypt, has sinned. 8 They have quickly strayed from the way which you showed them: and they have made to themselves a molten calf, and have adored it, and sacrificing victims to it, have said: These are your gods, O Israel, that have brought you out of the land of Egypt.
Exodus 32:7-8
We do not adore Mary or the saints; we do not offer victims to them; we do not even remotely consider them gods. You and the watchtower are guilty of the same idiocy. No Catholic actually believes (and I think I can say this applies universally without any exception) that the statues themselves are gods and so to use Acts 19:26 clearly shows that the JWs are arguing about things they have no understanding of.
The fact is that God many times instructs the use of images in connection with Jewish worship. Here is a more comprehensive list:
There was the brazen serpent (Numbers 21:9), not destroyed till Ezechias [worshiped them] (2 Kings 18:4), there were carved and moulded garlands of fruit and flowers and trees (Numbers 8:4; 1 Kings 6:18; 7:36); the king's throne rested on carved lions (1 Kings 10:19-20), Iions and bulls supported the basins in the temple (1 Kings 7:25, 29). Especially there are the cherubim, great carved figures of beasts (Ezekiel 1:5; 10:20, where they are called beasts), that stood over the ark of the covenant (Exodus 25:18-22; 1 Kings 6:23-8; 8:6-7, etc.)
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07664a.htm
Again, neither you nor this magazine offers any explanation of what idolatry is. Broadly, you seem to think it is idolatrous just to possess a statue (only if it is religious somehow.) You seem pathologically unable to answer my simple question -- what do you think constitutes worship and idolatry?
17 Feb 10
Yes I have to agree with Conrau and Manny. G75 seems to have a JW leaning.
And Conrau I totally agree with you, in theory anyway, that statues and images can be worshipped without being idolized.
I don't know why G75 cant grasp this.
Of course there are always going to be exceptions, but that is true with all religons and denominations. If the basic premise (for a religon), is good then it has a chance to do good. If the heads of that religon (priests) , are strong, consistent and generally virtuous then that religon (or denomination) has a chance of having a healthy spiritual/family/community life.
BTW I've enjoyed your arguements ,Conrau K. Of course I am not the same religon as you, but thats not what I look for in a good debate🙂
17 Feb 10
I understand G75's point but the enlightened mind knows that a statue is a statue made of wood or steel or bronze or whatever. The idolatry is putting anything before God as far as worship. Your computer can become an idol or your T.V. or Money or your religion even. We understand G75 were not as simplistic as you might believe.
Manny
17 Feb 10
Originally posted by galveston75Just like the 144,000 they are somebody. It says they follow the Lamb where ever He goes. ( No Joke meant) They are the first fruits of the redeemed. Meaning there will be more to follow!! First then more. As far as the 24 elders? Possibly the 12 Apostles and the heads of the 12 tribes of Israel ? 12+12=24 maybe 24 has some symbolic meaning. Also think about this if Jesus (The lamb) is supposed to live on the earth to rule according to JW's Theology and the 144,000 in Heaven then why do they follow the Lamb where ever He goes ?? Because Heaven and earth will be unified and where God is will be Heaven.
It does not. It's a simple side question. It mentions the 24 elders in black and white. They are somebody right? Who are they?
Manny